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Post by Wavey75 on Jan 2, 2014 1:26:59 GMT
I've been a father to my 3 daughters since they were 9, 6 and 2 years old when I first met them.
They are now 21, 18 and 15 and all size 6 to 8, 5 feet tall and think they're fat and ugly.
They could not be more wrong.
My problem is when I hear they are self-harming because they're unhappy, or upset or being shouted at, etc.
For whatever reason, when I ask them why they do it, they don't know.
This is illogical to me as it's quite simple - they don;y jump off a cliff because they know it will kill them, they don;t drink poison because they know it will kill them, they don't step in front of a moving car because they know it will hurt or kill them, so why do they hurt themselves???
I know that in certain situations it's a good thing to hurt in another place to take your mind of another place if your stuck half way up a mountain or something like that, the release of immune system cells helps, etc( I forget the science).
But sitting up in their rooms cutting their sides above the hips (they're not trying to remove mass due to delusions of obesity either) initially my middle daughter did this, and my youngest found out and 'copied' her technique, but now I've found out she's moved on to her lady razor (Venus or whatever) to cut herself.
This is really bugging me - not having an explanation for your own action when you have no excuse e.g. under the influence, like the high of it, etc.
Does anything else have this about them - the inability to let go of something?
I mean I can barely speak to her without some form of direct questioning falling out of my mouth because I'm completely confused and must understand 'why'
My wife tells me I shouldn't focus on it, just comfort her and let her know I'm there for her and care, but I can't help myself, it's there at the front of my mind repeating, pressing, waiting to push itself out of my mouth and into the air, which leads to an argument or my upsetting her, etc.
I have another situation with each of the other 2, one of them is in a violent abusive relationship, living with her boyfriend who abuses her and she still refuses to see he's completely wrong for her and she needs to get out, the eldest is living with her boyfriend who's about as thick as they come, nice lad and all, but he lies about everything (fairly harmless) but all she does is bitch about him, but when I say "So throw him out then!" I've upset her and she's telling her mother she won't visit while I'm here, etc.
It's all calmed down a little now (I think my ADHD Diagnosis helped with that a bit, but I don;t think they know what ADHD actually is) but my middle daughter is coming for a visit and I wanna run for the hills until she's gone as we're on our last threads with her as far as a relationship is concerned, after I pretty much drove her (metaphorically speaking) into his arms 6 hours away, as she moved out.
anyway, does anyone have any advice (that's not too wordy please!)
Wavey1975
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Post by shapes on Jan 2, 2014 1:49:15 GMT
I'm not a parent but did self harm at about that age.
For me it was a mixture of low self esteem, frustration and wanting to control something. I don't know if it is the same for other self harmers though.
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Post by JJ on Jan 2, 2014 1:58:04 GMT
It's a mental health issue... There isn't always a 'why' that's known by the sufferer or explainable even if it is....
You can't explain why you can't motivate yourself to do something until the very last minute, even if doing so causes so much stress and problems....even tho it's illogical....
And you don't have to be able to explain for it to be very real - no one has to understand why, they just have to accept it....
Same with your daughter....
Your wife is right in her advice as to how to approach it.
I've not done this myself and I personally don't get it, but my friend used to very severely. It was an expression of her mental pain (as she's got mentally stronger, she's stopped doing it), when she starts getting depressed and /or anxious, the compulsion to do it comes back.
She said it's like a release for her.... I always wondered whether there was also a mild link to the release of endorphins - a self-medication thing. But I don't think that's the crux of it.
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Post by JJ on Jan 2, 2014 1:58:56 GMT
I'm not a parent but did self harm at about that age. For me it was a mixture of low self esteem, frustration and wanting to control something. I don't know if it is the same for other self harmers though. And my friend has said all of this too
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Post by DKL - darkknightslover on Jan 2, 2014 11:46:49 GMT
Do you have the attention span for reading a book? I came across a really good one I think you might find helpful if you're looking to understand it more as a condition. I'll have to look it up.
Sent from my C6603 using proboards
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2014 13:57:23 GMT
This would proper tear me up I think. It sounds like a no-win for you. I've never come across it so have no experience to share. My thinking would be to become involved with the self-harm community somehow i.e. glean as much info as you can from others who you are not emotionally involved with. It may add a 'patience' or understanding buffer you can use to greater effect with your daughters as you will have satiated some of the 'why' that beats your skull like a hammer. Ultimately, it may be a form of anxiety/depression for which professional help might be the answer. They'll need overwhelming positive support to feel confident enough to consider help, though. Don't make any of these suggestions yourself to them directly. I suspect many of us (Dads) are on auto-ignore
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Post by Wavey75 on Jan 2, 2014 14:04:28 GMT
JJ,
There's always an explanation - for everything.
I'm over-weight and I have a problem controlling my eating (junk, binging, comfort eating, etc) and I know all the nutrition information, what to eat what not to eat, how to read food labels, etc. I know the causes and effects and I know what needs to be done - except that I don't do it and I don't know and can't explain why.
There's a 'why' to this also, I just haven't discovered it yet.
Same goes for the self-harm - there is a 'why', just haven't found it yet or the individual hasn't realised it.
DKL,
A book may well help, I often look for the epub/mobi version rather than reading online or a physical book, which i I can borrow from the internet.
Mike,
I don't wish to nor want to submerge myself in self-harming community, no amount of reading what people do and why will help with my process.
All that would do me me is frustrate me more with why I don;t know why she does it, but thanks for the thought.
I should point out that she is about to start therapy for this, as her sister did, except she refused to accept it as help when the first thing she was told to do was end her abusive relationship - she choose boy wonder instead.
There's no boy trouble with youngest along those lines thank christ.
Wavey75
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Post by JJ on Jan 2, 2014 15:45:48 GMT
JJ,
There's always an explanation - for everything.
I'm over-weight and I have a problem controlling my eating (junk, binging, comfort eating, etc) and I know all the nutrition information, what to eat what not to eat, how to read food labels, etc. I know the causes and effects and I know what needs to be done - except that I don't do it and I don't know and can't explain why.
There's a 'why' to this also, I just haven't discovered it yet.
Same goes for the self-harm - there is a 'why', just haven't found it yet or the individual hasn't realised it. What I actually said was 'why' isn't always known by the sufferer or explainable anyway, and that you don't have to know the reason for it to be very real. Your 'why' for your food issues will be a complex mixture of nature and nurture, your adhd is most certainly implicated, your other genetic make-up, your childhood, upbringing, your life experiences, your current situation.... Your daughter's 'why' will be similarly complex. There won't be some 'one' thing you can discover, but her having more unconditional acceptance, unconditional positive regard, more compassion, less arguments and less judgement at home will definitely help. You're focussing on something that, while interesting to you, isn't necessarily as helpful to her - and certainly you yourself understanding isn't helpful to her. Your single minded focus on this alone might make her feel even less understood, even less valued for her thoughts being important, this won't help her self-esteem - and no one who really values and likes themselves cuts their body with razor blades. I don't want to sound as though I'm attacking you, but I don't know how to put this in a more diplomatic way. You come across as being rigid and slightly authoritarian and not entirely accepting that your daughter is an autonomous valid being - and these things are not good for a child's mental well-being at all. I'm not laying the whole blame at your door for her mental health problems, please be very clear about that, but I am saying statistically children in those households suffer higher rates of mental ill-health. We've already established that mental issues are complex, with many contributing factors, and all I'm saying is that this could be looked at and being less like this will be beneficial statistically. You say in one breath that you know all the rights and wrongs about healthy eating yet you don't do it - well she'll know this boy is not being good to her, but she can't leave him yet. It's not always about what you logically know, we're people, it's never that clear cut. Staying with an abusive partner is just not as simple as 'he's an arse, so leave him'. You don't even have to believe me, just look at the stats... You're allowed to be complex, she is too.... And these issues are very complex - about all of the above I've mentioned re your eating issues, plus her living in a patriarchal society, one that makes it ok to make adverts and songs about domestic abuse, objectify women, and so on ad nauseum......It's extraordinarily complicated and as far away from black and white for the victim as it's possible to be. Telling someone to pull their socks up just alienates them - as shown by her then saying she doesn't want to come over now..... .
DKL
A book may well help
Mike,
I don't wish to nor want to submerge myself in self-harming community, no amount of reading what people do and why will help with my process.
All that would do me me is frustrate me more with why I don;t know why she does it, but thanks for the thought. You say you want to understand why, and yet that no amount of reading why will help with your process - why do you think that other people's reasons aren't going to be similar to those of your daughter? I get this niggly uncomfortable feel that you see these people and your daughter as 'less' in some way - I can't find a nice way of writing it...contemptuous, frustrating, silly.... The people who write the text books conversely as not..... The academics got their material from the sufferers tho.... And possibly got into the subject because of their own issues.... And in any case, mental health is every bit as valid as physical health - and a self-harmer no more silly than a diabetic.... I'm very aware that you're new here and you're looking for support for adhd and other stuff. I really don't want you to feel attacked by me and not able to access the help here and I hope that's not the case. But at the same time, the things you've said do make me think the things I've written - and you clearly do want your daughter to get better, and I think some changes in the way you deal with her might make a small contribution to that - so that's why I've written this. Xx
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2014 16:12:28 GMT
Having someone tell you that your daughter said 'sometimes, daddy can be a bit... shouty' is like a frying pan to the face when you think you are anything but.
No one here knows your personal situation, certainly not me. There are some things you've said I personally identify with and in typical ADHD style, I feel the overwhelming urge to try and help. I always think I know best, it's an urge I fight constantly. I get ahead of myself sometimes, so feel free to tell me to STFU. I do, most sincerely, mean this and I've encouraged others on here to do the same because offending someone on here is that last thing I want to do.
I won't be offended by honest feedback. We are all blighted with the same condition and if we can't be honest with each other, we're probably fucked because the rest of the world is full of nodders and smilers.
IMHO, your ADHD meds are the key to all this. Sort yourself out and the rest will fall into place.
Best of luck.
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Post by Wavey75 on Jan 2, 2014 16:58:36 GMT
Right, OK.
Gonna start with the easiest to remember first! lol
Mike,
Thanks for your post - I'm lost at STFU, unless it should be STFO? anyway, not at all gonna happen (if I've got the jist of the acronym!) your posts have been great.
JJ,
Your posts has also been great, I doubt there's anything you could say to offend me, but there's lots that will get me lost even without acronyms! My point is, you do not have to worry about offending me, I'm pretty thick skinned for a dragon ;-)
There's lots you've written and I'm trying to go through it, but it's difficult to remember it all, so here goes:
I know what you meant, but I didn't make it clear that the "why" I'm looking for is a specific "why", one that's applicable specifically to my youngest daughter. There's always n explanation - I stand by this, there is always a reason or a cause, it's nature in balance.
I am rigid, (scrolling up and down is making me dizzy! lol)'always right' and authoritarian, or as my wife puts it, very dominant. I don't mean to be and I certainly don't want to be in any spotlight (s this leads to an examination under a microscope) but if in place with several people, I'm always heard, weather I choose to be or not. I don't mean to sound so loud, it just happens - sometimes because I am so passionate about what I'm talking about or sometimes it's my anger welling up and I don't realise it - yes, the meds will help this and the other things you have mentioned concerning keeping a lid on the atmosphere in the home.
I'm focused on my youngest daughter, who still lives with us, but my relationship with my middle daughter is pretty much non-existent. For example, she's visiting for 10 days from tomorrow and I plan on disappearing simply because my wife has told me plenty of times that one of these days I'm going to argue with her or say the wrong thing that pushes her to decide on cutting us both out of her life, because she feels her Mother choose me kind of, no ultimatum was delivered, but my wife is always in the middle as a mediator and is often blamed as well.
Simply put I'm running away until she's gone for this reason and the fact that I don't feel like I can control my mouth, especially while I'm switching out meds, etc.
I know that for her, we have to sit back and watch until she realises her own situation and continue to show her that we are here for her, but this doesn't remove the urge to 'hurt' him - HARD.
I've said earlier here that I'm looking for a specific "why" concerning my youngest daughter, but what I really want to know is why harm yourself?
If you go back 30 years for example, I never heard of self harming - I heard lots of fighting, bullying and acting out from kids, etc. I'm trying to understand this because it doesn't make any sense, and I think I will just have to accept it - perhaps it's a case of laying the blame of added pressure for kids these days squarely on technology (which sticks in my throat).
I get this niggly uncomfortable feel that you see these people and your daughter as 'less' in some way - I can't find a nice way of writing it...contemptuous, frustrating, silly.... The people who write the text books conversely as not.....
I think you are right here, but I've only just realised it. I have been thinking all along that my middle daughter simply started because she had a friend at school who used to do it, so she started to. I then think my youngest started because she found out about her older sister doing it, etc. It's a horrible thought process, but it makes sense and it explains the 'fad' of it as there's no other reason for it IMHO.
I know we've covered some others who have self-harmed and why the may have done it, etc. but in this case of my children I see it as a 'fad', a trend if you will.
She will be seeing someone to talk about it and she will get the help she needs, but it doesn't change my opinion of it - and this is why I'm revealing it here, so it's off the tip of my tongue and nowhere near her ears.
It might sound old fashioned, but things like this I leave to her mother and just do what I'm told. None of them have ever really come to me for things like this, they all came to me for games, or a quick airplane ride, or to fix something, etc. all this icky feelings stuff was their mother's department ;-)
Wavey75
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2014 17:23:16 GMT
I agree with your line of thinking in that everything has a reason and in most cases, if you look hard enough, it can be found.
I also think I know what you mean by 'fad' but fad is possibly the wrong word. If my m8 tells me he had jolly good fun punching himself in the face I wouldn't start copying him.
Girls, of course, are entirely different and allegedly more prone to peer pressure and peer rejection. However, they are not stupid. They don't whimsically pick up on things for the lols. This fad as you put it, is attending to a specific need. If it wasn't this fad, it would be something else.
Question I would be asking myself, what was the last fad? The one before that?
It's probably no coincidence that both her and her sister are doing the same thing. It's either a biologically related compulsion (think of ADHDers unable to stop playing games, unable to stop speaking their mind, unable to stop...) or it's a product of upbringing. Maybe a wedge of the former with a veneer of the latter.
Their mother has FMS... the crux of which is a heightened sense of intolerable pain and fatigue. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that a similar neurological condition exists in your daughters, too? They may have carried it all their lives, not being able to put into words how it makes them feel. Eventually, the older of the two has stumbled onto something which alleviates a feeling they known since forever.
At some point, your youngest has spoken to the other one about feeling x, y and z. 'Is this the way people feel?' 'I dunno but when I cut myself I feel much better' 'Oh really?!' 'Yeh...'
That conversation would have ended with no further action with someone not carrying a psychological burden. I have ADHD all my life and I still wouldn't put a blade anywhere near myself so it's clearly something I will never understand.
Maybe my imagination is running away with me. Again.
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Post by contrarymary on Jan 2, 2014 18:02:40 GMT
Wavey75welcome to the forum could you please post in normal size font, ideally with the bog standard type face that everyone else uses? i can't read your posts when they are both huge and round, because of visual processing problems which are fairly common alongside adhd. the adhd memory/attention problems means that by the time i have read a few words i have forgotten the earlier words. and the large font is like an assault on the eyes for visual processing problems - it's really really painful. thank you
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Post by Wavey75 on Jan 2, 2014 18:13:33 GMT
Mike,
Thanks again for your comments both wise words and very good advice!
contraymary,
Apologies for offending the eyes, I too have visual problems and I find it painful to concentrate on such a small font size, this feels like an assault on my eyes with it being so small and I find it very hard to find my place and end up reading the same line over and over again because I've lost my place for the nth time, so choosing a font was available, so I choose a size which doesn't strain my eyes.
I would prefer to keep it this size though, so as long as this isn't breaking any forum rules then I would like to stay with it and ask for your patience.
Does anyone have any suggestions for what I can do in this situation, where one is struggling with small size, and the other is struggling with large font size?
Wavey75
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2014 18:28:56 GMT
Hi Wavey
On the font issue - no rules whatsoever.
The one you've just taken to is a bit difficult for the rest of us - could you take it down a couple of points? You can always zoom stuff up a bit, Chrome is an easy browser to use for that.
I'll try to remember to make mine a bit bigger when you're the beneficiary of the thread.
This is 'size 3' ie 12pt
BTW - just found out I've been reading this at 125%. No wonder 12pt was looking huge! (I trained as a printer)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2014 18:35:02 GMT
If you have a wheel on your mouse (third button), you can hold the Ctrl button and wheel up or down to zoom in/out. Similarly, Ctrl and the + or - button on the keyboard will do the same thing, usually. It does make it easier for all if everyone uses the same size as they might be accustomed to 'two zoom clicks' or similar. If everyone starts using different sizes it would make the forum almost unreadable for some
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Post by contrarymary on Jan 2, 2014 18:44:17 GMT
i'm sorry you have a visual problem wavy - is this something that can be assisted by something as low-tech as glasses, zooming or similar, or is it more complicated? visual processing problems affect the brain and ability to understand things as presented to the eyes, rather than the eyes' ability to see things. it can be affected by size of margins, colour of text or backgound, types of pictures - basically everything that is presented for understanding in terms of colour, contrast, spaces etc including font styles and sizes.... from how clothes are hung in a shop, goods displayed on shelves in a supermarket through to picking out faces in a crowd. (makes me overwhelmed in a supermarket and a superhero in charity shops) plus having posts of different sizes and fonts actually makes me feel dizzy and sick. it's similar to the reason why i can't manage smartphones - the way the software processes moving from one screen to another sets off tics and spasms. which is why i can't just scroll through the different-sized posts. or "simply" switch up and down in zoom or NoSquint or similar.
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Post by Wavey75 on Jan 2, 2014 18:47:33 GMT
Hi Dave,
Thanks for that, I'd prefer size 12, thought that was the one I was using - every forum's different, etc.
Hi Mike,
No scroll wheel, on a macbook air, sorry. I use Chrome, but for me to read it comfortably I'm scrolling left and right to read it doing it that way. It's better to copy and paste it into a text edit windows and cmd + it, but I as well as ADHD, APD and Visual problems, I also have carpel tunnel syndrome, ulner nerve syndrome, tennis elbow and general repetitive strain injuries in both, well arms to be honest.
If I was a horse, I'd have been Iceland's beef burgers a long time ago lol
Wavey75
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Post by Wavey75 on Jan 2, 2014 18:49:42 GMT
I'm really sorry you feel that way contrarymary, but I am now using a smaller font (12pt) instead of 14pt, and I'm not using a round font, I'm sticking with the standard Arial.
Wavey75
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2014 18:53:56 GMT
i'm sorry you have a visual problem wavy - is this something that can be assisted by something as low-tech as glasses, zooming or similar, or is it more complicated? visual processing problems affect the brain and ability to understand things as presented to the eyes, rather than the eyes' ability to see things. it can be affected by size of margins, colour of text or backgound, types of pictures - basically everything that is presented for understanding in terms of colour, contrast, spaces etc including font styles and sizes.... from how clothes are hung in a shop, goods displayed on shelves in a supermarket through to picking out faces in a crowd. (makes me overwhelmed in a supermarket and a superhero in charity shops) plus having posts of different sizes and fonts actually makes me feel dizzy and sick. it's similar to the reason why i can't manage smartphones - the way the software processes moving from one screen to another sets off tics and spasms. which is why i can't just scroll through the different-sized posts. or "simply" switch up and down in zoom or NoSquint or similar. I'm pretty sure the lack of clear margins and borders since the forum upgrade is giving me headaches too.
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Post by shapes on Jan 2, 2014 19:36:41 GMT
I don't really like the term fad. It comes across as being dismissive. I don't know if self harming is more prevalent in modern times, or if mental illness in general is more prevalent. It certainly isn't new though.
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Post by Kathymel on Jan 2, 2014 20:31:04 GMT
Wavey, I've held back on answering because I haven't really talked about this before on here and it's something I don't feel entirely comfortable talking about.
I'm very aware that this may upset some friends on here, but it feels like an account from the horses mouth is needed, and from an entirely untypical one at that. I'm not looking for expressions of sympathy or horror. I would rather not have that.
I self harm. I don't do it often and I don't do it badly but, now and then, when particularly stressed, I will cut. I didn't do this as a teenager. The first time was in my late thirties when a lot of things were going very wrong.
My first attempts at self-harming involved banging my head on things hard but, although that was briefly effective, I found cutting to be more so.
What I mean by 'effective' is it creates a distraction so strong that it muffles the blaring noise and emotions of whatever it is that's upsetting you. It creates a focal point that overwhelms everything else. It allows you to have some control over your thoughts when there is none.
The last time I did it was after receiving a phone call to inform me that a promised ADHD specialist referral had been overturned by the consultant of the psych I had just seen. I couldn't cope with the massive overload of negative thoughts the news unleashed and which were spinning uncontrolled in my head. I just wanted to shut it up.
I'm not a faddy teenager. I'm an intelligent, emotionally literate adult who very occasionally can't cope with things. I didn't know about cutting as a teenager, but I imagine I would have done it then, had I known. Instead, I drank a lot, tried any drug that came my way (very few, disappointingly), slept with pretty much anyone and eventually joined the RAF (where at least the illegal stuff was way too risky to continue).
Personally, at the minor level that I do it, I think it's less harmful than drinking or drugging oneself into oblivion. Given that ADHD emotions tend to change with extreme rapidity, I now realise that if I can distract myself with something else, the need to cut will fairly quickly go away. The last time I thought about it, I made myself visit a friend's house and by the time I left, the urge was gone.
Your daughters are young and may well have extremes of emotion that they feel are beyond what they can cope with sometimes. They may not be very self-aware so they may not understand why they feel the urge to self-harm, just that it helps in some way and gives them something to feel that they are in control of.
They mustn't be made to feel that what they are doing is bad or disgusting or that it lessens them in any way. They need to know that you love them no matter what and that you understand that they find their emotions hard to deal with sometimes, even if you don't understand why they choose to exercise self-harm to deal with them. They need understanding and support to find other ways of dealing with their emotions.
Eventually, they will probably stop. It is unusual for older women to self-harm. I think self-harm forums are an excellent way to gain understanding of why people do this, both for yourself and your daughters, and to learn about the ways in which other people learn to stop self-harming. For some, it becomes a compulsion/addiction that completely takes over their lives and these forums are truly a godsend for these people.
I know my situation is quite distant to the one you are experiencing, but I hope what I have said has helped a little. Please feel free to ask me anything.
Kathy x
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Post by JJ on Jan 2, 2014 21:28:37 GMT
I know what you meant, but I didn't make it clear that the "why" I'm looking for is a specific "why", one that's applicable specifically to my youngest daughter. There's always n explanation - I stand by this, there is always a reason or a cause, it's nature in balance.
I've said earlier here that I'm looking for a specific "why" concerning my youngest daughter, but what I really want to know is why harm yourself?
If you go back 30 years for example, I never heard of self harming - I heard lots of fighting, bullying and acting out from kids, etc. I'm trying to understand this because it doesn't make any sense, and I think I will just have to accept it - perhaps it's a case of laying the blame of added pressure for kids these days squarely on technology (which sticks in my throat).
I have been thinking all along that my middle daughter simply started because she had a friend at school who used to do it, so she started to. I then think my youngest started because she found out about her older sister doing it, etc. It's a horrible thought process, but it makes sense and it explains the 'fad' of it as there's no other reason for it IMHO.
I know we've covered some others who have self-harmed and why the may have done it, etc. but in this case of my children I see it as a 'fad', a trend if you will.
I'm relieved I didn't offend you Wavey75 - that'll never be my intention . And revealing things here, questioning things etc is ok - and better than to her of course First of all, I do understand the need to know why, and there will be reasons specific to your daughter... I was just saying they're complicated and science can't even explain all these things adequately, so you won't be able to...and you knowing isn't the key to making it all better. It sounds to me like your focus on the 'why' is because logically knowing that will lead to being able to fix it. And parents want to fix things for their children. And I think men especially want to fix things - especially by 'doing' something - and get less how sometimes there isn't anything they can actually do, other than listen, support etc - all the 'icky feelings stuff' Self-harm is definitely 'reported' more and there seems to be quite a bit that suggests it's actually on the rise. However, it isn't a new phenomenon - it goes back as far as anxiety, depression, distress go back! It's mentioned in the Bible... It's found world-wide, in developing as well as rich western high tech countries and it's not exclusive to human beings - google animals in captivity, animals in distress.... I agree an idea could be planted in a child's head if their friend is doing it - but I think that probably only makes a difference in the vulnerable anyway. So, if your daughter was vulnerable to mental health issues, if she hadn't ended up self-harming, it would've manifested as something else instead - drug issues, alcohol problems, teenage pregnancy, anorexia, bulimia and so on.... Children have so many more anxieties these days, we all do, it'd be a big social psychology essay to explain it, suffice to say that there are many more conditions for mental distress to thrive today than there were 30 years ago. Technology is in there, but as a factor amongst many others. And, as an aside, much less was known about mental health full stop 30 years ago - it was there but shameful and hidden.... You wouldn't be diagnosed as adhd then but you'd still have it... Child sexual abuse wasn't even recognised properly 30 years ago - so something like self-harm would have no chance. All that notwithstanding, I still do understand how you can't understand how someone would cut themselves - I share that as I couldn't do it myself... But it's actually not as alien if you think about it in another way.... I have been in low places in my life where I've abused my body.... I've had periods where I've felt so bad, I just didn't care about what I was doing and I've pushed things to the limits, just to feel something, I've 'punished' myself... I'm sure many here could identify with these things... Alcohol, drugs, sex, food.... For me, with food, in the past I've shoved my face so full my stomach hurts.... The distress is there and self-harm is the manifestation - one of many there could be, but this is her one. It's not a fad, it's definitely important and you absolutely should read up a bit on it and acknowledge its validity to her. (If you still can't fully accept it then, like you said, discuss it on here). If I was either of your daughters, I'd be pleased to know my dad was trying to understand. I'd wish he could get it completely, but really trying would be almost as good. And I'd want to feel he really valued me, my views, my actions - that he respected them and didn't dismiss them as silly or not important and that he was proud of me. And it'd be ok if he left it to my mum to do the talking stuff, as long as I knew it didn't mean he didn't care. These are all difficult things to deal with, I feel for you and your family xx
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Post by JJ on Jan 2, 2014 21:35:52 GMT
I didn't see Kathymel 's post before I posted mine. That was brave Kathy xx It's a shame you've never met her Wavey75, she's an amazing and strong woman... this issue clearly happens to the best of us....
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Post by Wavey75 on Jan 2, 2014 21:53:28 GMT
Kathymel,
I would like to thank you for opening up your own circumstances to me - something you have kept to yourself and never shared here.
Firstly, My daughters have had the offer of treatment, my middle daughter was 18 when she refused it because they told her to dump boy wonder, she thought they were idiots and lost any respect for them, but she has been in the relationship long-distance) for 2 years by this point, in fact she moved out of our home at 15 because of the relationship - she 'met' this idiot on facebook and they chatted non stop for a period and she blew a fuse when her mother and I both said she wasn't going alone to meet this stranger from t'internet.
She moved in t=with her 'waste-of-space' biological father's spare room, which after a few months he moved house 5 mins round the corner with 1 less bedroom and she got the unconverted garage, complete with tumble dryer and metal door to the outside - no insulation, not allowed to turn on the single and only source of heat - she stuck it there for over a year before he said she HAD to move out, she came home here and we argued as well as her sisters arguing with her and her mum, but it's mostly me she seemed to have the problem with, which ironically she explains is because i have the problem with her, but that's a whole other nightmare.
What you have described concerning the feelings for self-harming, by comparison and IMHO are pretty much the same as heroin or high an addict gets, the clarity of it, the clearing of one's mind, etc.
I think there might be some asphyxia-relation to natural highs in there somewhere too, but I'm not a medical professional.
Your account of how you start and in particular you point out looking for how people stop self-harming, which hadn't even entered my head will definitely help a lot.
I accept your point on the comparison of alcohol and drugs, but disagree with you on the comparable dangers as anything to excess is damaging and will lead to serious consequences.
Finally, I must stress that my youngest daughter will get the help and support she needs form us both. As far as my older daughter is concerned, she will decide what she will and will not do, and all we can do is support her decisions and that's that. We can't drag her into therapy, she's 18 and she knows it.
Shapes,
I apologise if you don't like 'fad', but in the context I used it, I feel it still applies when discussing teenagers and their impressionable minds. I do accept that people who self harm do have a real problem and need help to stop, so please understand me when I say I'm not belittling self-harm, I am stating my opinion of what I think goes on with young teenage girls, just like their fashion trends, who looses their virginity in the bushes, who has who's bag, who's using needles to get high and who's pregnant with their boyfriends baby - I term these as fads, because fads are trends often set by stronger personalities in children's peer groups. Apologies if my opinion on this is offensive, but it's my opinion.
Wavey75
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Post by Kathymel on Jan 3, 2014 0:54:36 GMT
What you have described concerning the feelings for self-harming, by comparison and IMHO are pretty much the same as heroin or high an addict gets, the clarity of it, the clearing of one's mind, etc. Well, I've had heroine and I can say without a shadow of doubt it's nothing whatsoever like that. There is no high, there is just a few minutes distraction from the painful thought-brouhaha in one's head.
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Post by Wavey75 on Jan 3, 2014 1:17:48 GMT
Kathymel,
Then can I ask, what would you compare the relief from self harm to, if not heroine?
I hit 17 and decided to try 'everything', but it was mostly lots of sex, drugs and rock and roll.
But I didn't touch anything I thought I may have got hooked on, etc.
It's fine with me if you'd rather not talk about it, i was just looking for some sort of equivalent.
Wavey75
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Post by Kathymel on Jan 3, 2014 1:40:26 GMT
It's more like getting lost in a good book, to be honest (though more extreme, obviously). It just largely takes your mind off the thing that was too painful to think about any more. Just for a bit. It's actually quite difficult to explain the feelings involved without sounding like I'm celebrating it or even encouraging it, so I hesitate to describe it too intensely. It's just incredibly focusing - not a high, just something else to think about. It's pure distraction. Of course, you then have the annoyance of trying to hide the cut for a few days until it heals, then the worry that this might be one too many or not tiny enough to be unnoticeable and, although it's an extra worry, this also distracts from the main worry and that's good too. Sort of.
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Post by Wavey75 on Jan 3, 2014 2:11:12 GMT
I see what you're saying, but I can't help but think it's pointless for you, as you have ADHD which is one great big distraction, so there's no need to distract yourself as your always distracted, i drives ma mad I can't keep my focus on things, the last thing I need is more distraction. I get the feeling that you'll say that's not it either.
Perhaps it would be a good idea to pm me the real explanation, as there's no way it will sound like a good thing to me, so no need to worry about promoting it to me, but it would be great for me to really get a sense of it from you as you have been so helpful with this subject and opening up about it.
Wavey75
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Post by Kathymel on Jan 3, 2014 2:23:07 GMT
Distraction and lack of focus is a problem in many areas, yes, but hyper-focus is also part of ADHD. I tend to hyper-focus on the negative stuff. It churns round and round, endlessly and tortuously, and leaves me quite desperate to get it to stop.
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Post by Wavey75 on Jan 3, 2014 19:53:32 GMT
The only thing I can think of for when I feel like everything's churning around in my head is when I write it down and then I can let go of it.
I write it down, save it to my hard drive and my cloud drive and move on to other things.
I don't think I'm going to get it, but there have been some really helpful comments for me personally and I feel that's enough.
I just went out a bought a guitar amp for our electric guitar for her to play on and I'm taking her for horse riding lessons, which a friend of mine recommended to lift her spirits and affect a positive change in her life.
Hopefully, with her therapy starting soon as well she should start to feel more positive about herself.
Wavey75
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