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Post by vagueandrandom on Dec 23, 2016 17:39:04 GMT
gc7 the article you linked to recommends that you take it IN ADDITION TO and not instead of ADHD medications. Also WARNING . .just because something's found 'in nature' doesn't mean that it's safe to use . .there are plenty of poisonous plants . .and many 'pharma' drugs are derived from things found in nature. . .asprin from bark and penicillin from mould, for example. . Heroin and cocaine are natural products derived from plants, as are tobacco and alcohol. . Pharmacological drugs are rigorously tested before coming to market, which is why they cost so much to develop and 'natural' remedies are often not tested to such an extent. What are 'chemicals' and 'synthetics'? they have to be made from something. .usually something found or extracted from the natural world. Would you prefer diabetics to still get insulin extracted from animals (natural) or use 'synthetic' versions. I'm not totally against using food supplements for health, but would never advocate the use of anything INSTEAD OF . . .or encourage buying unknown substances online as you don't know what's in them.
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Post by marionk on Dec 23, 2016 22:46:37 GMT
Hmm, well, 5HTP is the intermediate precursor to serotonin. Our brains usually get 5HTP indirectly from tryptophan in food. Tryptophan is converted into 5HTP by enzymes. IF there is something wrong with your enzymes that are supposed to do this, then it might make you deficient in serotonin, and so it could be beneficial to take 5HTP. But . . . The 'link' to ADHD in the article is actually based on findings of NON ADHD depression. (i.e. it's bogus) Most people with depression do well on serotonin boosting medication, but ADHDers generally don't. ADHD depression is different, I posted about my observations about my own depression a couple of days ago, and in looking up articles to more accurately write this post, I found this article from additudemag. The atypical effects of SSRIs in particular on ADHDers is well known, and I suspect that the ineffectiveness of anti-depressants in general is an unofficial diagnostic tool. It is a familiar tale on here of being prescribed all sorts of things to no avail before (reluctantly?) being dx with ADHD. Gobsmackingly I have found a coherent article on this in the Daily Wail!!!When I had tried practically every antidepressant known to man and a bunch of others besides, I read about 'treatment resistant depression' and that it was probably due to low dopamine rather than low serotonin. At that time I had no idea that ADHD was linked to low dopamine, nor how difficult it was (and still is) to get dopamine boosting medication. Basically ADHD is mainly about low dopamine, not low serotonin. Serotonin is important though, especially if you have any kind of sleep disorder, however (unless your enzymes are faulty), a tryptophan rich diet is a more natural way of boosting serotonin(/melotonin) levels.
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Post by marionk on Dec 24, 2016 16:14:35 GMT
No need to apologise!
I'm all for trying stuff that sounds like it might help and have been tempted to try 5HTP to help with my sleep problems, except that I know my serotonin levels are fine* from the effects that incorrectly prescribed meds had on me in the past.
In my googling yesterday, I did come across articles saying that serotonin was important in regulating dopamine, but I'm pretty sure that isn't my problem. In the recent past I have also come across articles saying that GABA is very important in regulating all neurotransmitters, and figure that they are all interlinked.
It's ironic that mph helps me sleep, seeing as sleep is mainly regulated by serotonin/melatonin.
Basically my attitude is try anything that is potentially helpful, just be cautious, as if you were titrating dex. So far Neurozen and atomoxetine are firmly on my 'don't try them again!!' list.
There are some things I intend to try properly when things are sorted out, including gingko, but I can't remember the rest offhand.
Many herbs and spices are well known for their various health benefits, also garlic.
Salt is important too, and since I've bucked the trend, and gone back to my childhood habit of making hot drinks with stock cubes, I've stopped craving crisps, and sometimes get a near decent night's sleep too.
*The medications may have permanently affected my serotonin levels (idk - I think they're back to normal now) but I don't have any problems now that I haven't had at some time before I took any medication, so I'm pretty sure they're not a significant factor.
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Post by vagueandrandom on Dec 25, 2016 0:59:24 GMT
I'm with marionk . .no need to apologise. .we're all liable to hyperfocus on research into something and post in haste . . I'm sure some people can be helped by these supplements . . I'm trying to learn to live *with* my ADHD unmedicated until I'm able to access NHS services, which will be a long time, if ever . .and I'm relatively happy with that. I know you've been offered Wellbutrin, which is licensed for stopping smoking, so can be prescribed off licence . . Happy Christmas x
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Post by toastytoast on Jan 3, 2017 11:04:34 GMT
Hey if you want a dopamine precursor, you should totally try dl-phenylalanine and vitamin b6. Ignore the scary name, you get it normally in food, it's just some people need a boost of it.
The phenylalanine is a precursor to dopamine in the same way that 5htp is a precursor to serotonin and the vitamin b6 is needed by the body to convert the phenylalanine into dopamine.
I've found it to be a great help. You can get it at holland and barret or probably cheaper on line. Can't recommend it enough. If your other meds are leading to a dopamine depletion and feeling bummed out, this could be perfect. If that's the case, it might even help the methylphenidate to work better for you. But like I say, phenylalanine and b6 are great on their own in my experience.
I'd love to hear how it went for you/for anyone else that decides to try it.
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Post by marionk on Jan 4, 2017 10:01:11 GMT
I've quoted your post because it's only visible on mobiles atm (Your first post? First posts need to be approved by admin to be visible on pc's.)
I have tried a diet rich in neurotransmitter precursors, (lots of almonds, fish, meat eggs and dairy) but with no striking improvement. (Edited to add that I have since discovered that I wasn't eating enough. 50g protein (that's about 200g fish, meat or cheese) a day was nowhere near enough, apparently, and since I've been eating 80-100g I have been MUCH better.)
Ditto for the B6, along with a good balance of other vitamins.
I can't remember if I was still taking vitamins when I tried the high protein (and 'super foods') diet, but again, no definite improvement.
I really must try both together, and then try the various herbal things on top, one at a time.
Interestingly I have a rash (seborrhoeic dermatitis?) that might be from B6 deficiency, that responds noticeably to cortisone cream, but although it comes and goes a bit, nothing else has any detectable effect.
Hmm, I'm disappearing down a google wormhole, so will just add a question and then post.
When you say 'other meds', you mean meds other than ADHD meds, or ?
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Post by marionk on Jan 4, 2017 11:12:27 GMT
Ok, that wormhole: A symptom of B6 deficiency is seborrhoeic dermatitis. B6 deficiency can be caused by isoniazid aka isonicotinylhydrazide. Ooh what's the connection? I know nicotine can be good for us, so why is isoniazid bad? (offshoot wormhole to articles about nicotine benefits) isoniazid increases liver enzymes - are they the same kind of enzymes that break down things? I know I have elevated levels of the enzyme that breaks down caffeine - ok not the same precise enzyme not even the same kind of enzymes at all, so how does isoniazid(INH) cause b6 deficiency? INH binds to B6 - so looking like a dead end, but from the same source - The reason for hepatotoxicty with INH is due to the inhibition of P450 liver enzymes. And they ARE the enzymes that break down things :S I might have another look into them later, but it looks like it's the effect on B6 that's more relevant than the 'nicotine' or metabolising enzymes. back to why INH causes B6 deficiency - very nice info here, although it doesn't mention that B6 is important for It does have this warning:- So maybe not such a good idea to be taking B6 after all. We need more dopamine in the brain, not outside of it. But then again, it's still needed, surely?!, for dopamine production within the brain. Maybe we should consume more tyrosine AND more B6. - Haha, there's a suprprise (not ;P) : all the same foods on both lists
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Post by blaze on Feb 23, 2017 11:14:06 GMT
I've tried most of the natural dopamine precursors (excepting one that stops contreceptive pill working) with and without Meds, together &;seperate. They have an effect for a few days then back to usual I generally find. Not as effective as Meds ime
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Post by marionk on Mar 2, 2017 1:28:41 GMT
I have tried a diet rich in neurotransmitter precursors, (lots of almonds, fish, meat eggs and dairy) but with no striking improvement. Since writing that, I discovered that actually, I wasn't eating enough protein for my body weight, and since increasing my intake even more, I have had noticeable improvement of various things, especially mood.
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Post by marionk on Jun 8, 2017 11:05:31 GMT
Has anyone tried soy-based Phosphatidylserine and Curcumin? Apparently the Phosphatidylserine is a natural supplement that helps address low dopamine levels. There is a type that is made from animal products and questions have been raised around its safety because of Mad Cow disease (I think the animal-based one is derived from animal brains - yeuch!), but the veggie option comes from soya and I haven't found any health warnings attached to that. Does anyone know any more about this? The curcumin comes from turmeric and I had already heard that turmeric is a good health supplement as it is both antioxidant and anti-inflammatory. It is recommended as a partner supplement with the Phosphatidylserine. I'd be really interested to hear from anyone who has tried these and/or from any naturopath with an interest in using natural treatments for low dopamine/ADHD. It would be great to find a way of addressing the low dopamine with a safe supplement that could be used long-term with no adverse effects. gc7 Did you try the phosphatidylserine? I know from experience with hindsight that turmeric with black pepper is helpful. It's because it's a natural MAOI. Phosphatidylserine is supposed to help with acetylcholine which is involved in memory. So, as I seem to have sorted the general dopamine deficiency malaise, I just need to get the impaired parts of my brain working, including certain aspects of memory, this looks like it might help.
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Post by marionk on Jun 10, 2017 13:04:19 GMT
The phenylalanine and B6 thing was a while back, and I haven't tried it, except I probably have eradicated any deficiency (of either of those) by significantly changing my diet. If your mood and energy levels are fine, then it's unlikely that you are deficient in phenylalanine, as it's in pretty much anything with protein. It's possible that it's lack of phenylalanine that is the principal cause of the symptoms of protein deficiency, but it's easier and quicker (and cheaper) to boost protein generally, than to fuss about trying individual amino acids one by one. (B6, I haven't checked where it comes from) The principal reason for my last post was to ask about phosphatidylserine. I am still deficient in something, but actually, it's not likely to be phosphatidylserine. Since writing that post asking how you got on with it, I found it's best source is oily fish, which I eat regularly. It's not found in much else though, so as you are 'mostly veggie', you might not be getting enough. It can be made from soya, but isn't naturally present. We (our bodies) can make some, but, again, maybe not enough. eta: White beans are a relatively good vegetable source of it, but you'd need to eat nearly twice as much as you would tuna, to get the same amount. Coffee is good stuff, I only warn about caffeine because officially it is bad for everyone, but I suspect that, like other stimulants, it's actually good for ADHDers. I get no boost from caffeine, but if I drink two or more mugs of coffee a day, I get a prolonged gentle effect from the harmaline in it. Like I said, good stuff.
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