insiderob
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Post by insiderob on Jan 9, 2014 9:16:18 GMT
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Post by mighty on Jan 9, 2014 13:02:32 GMT
I don't have a times subscription unfortunately - what's the gist of it? I do personally quite like the idea of a "syndrome" rather than "disease" approach to mental health problems, if he's referring to what I'm thinking of! Although now thinking he totally isn't! I'll look at some of his articles I can read!! Fuck, maybe he is! Wish I could read it! Copy paste?
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insiderob
Member's not posted much yet
Posts: 36
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Post by insiderob on Jan 9, 2014 13:37:35 GMT
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Post by mighty on Jan 9, 2014 15:35:29 GMT
Interesting, I'll be back with some controversy later
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Post by mighty on Jan 9, 2014 16:05:29 GMT
I haven't been able to read the article, but I'm going to defend the writer of this book. I haven't read it, but I don't think it's as "bad" as it seems. So, the book is called ADHD DOES NOT EXIST. This title is obviously intentionally provocative. A book is a product, and publishers demand things like this - anything that will get the product recognised. On closer look, it's clear that he isn't exactly saying what his title suggests. Most people with an ADHD diagnosis are offended when they are told by others that their (very real) problems don't actually exist, that they are doing what everyone else does, and are just bitching and complaining more. He doesn't seem to be saying that. The description states: Based on his experience, he offers a shocking conclusion: ADHD is not a condition on its own, but rather a symptom complex caused by over twenty separate conditions—from poor eyesight and giftedness to bipolar disorder and depression—each requiring its own specific treatment.This isn't how I would put it, and not everyone will agree, but at least he is acknowledging that there are ADHD-related problems that people need help with. Personally I think that what we call ADHD is indeed very broad, and can manifest itself in so many ways, for so many reasons. It makes sense that someone would come out and say it's not a distinct disorder, rather a set of symptoms arising from various difficulties. I kind of agree. There are people on here who experience ASD-type problems, OCD, BPD, and all the other mundane acronyms. Maybe there is an underlying propensity for mental distress or "syndrome". Anyone ever noticed that there seems to be two types of people? The type who is likely to conform, go to bed on time, and function well in society; and the type who struggles with all that? The latter seems to go hand in hand with ADHD-type symptoms, but there are naturally huge differences between all the types of people who could be said to sit in this group. Just offering some thoughts
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Post by shapes on Jan 9, 2014 16:19:44 GMT
It sounds like bullshit to me.
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Post by mighty on Jan 9, 2014 16:22:43 GMT
Shapes - why does it sound like bullshit?
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Post by shapes on Jan 9, 2014 16:34:22 GMT
I'd have to think how to put it into words. And I have things to do but will try later.
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Post by fuzzywuzzy on Jan 9, 2014 16:51:50 GMT
If the Daily Mail loves Richard Saul....and it appears that it does....you just know it's never going to bode well.... he cites discovering that previously diagnosed cases just turned out to be 'needing glasses' or 'too much coffee' sounds just what we need..... he also thinks this symptom complex that doesn't exist known as 'ADHD' just masks less serious conditions.... in reality ADHD is lethal......the very foundation of far more serious conditions
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Post by mighty on Jan 9, 2014 17:01:15 GMT
If the Daily Mail loves Richard Saul....and it appears that it does....you just know it's never going to bode well.... Haha uh oh, you could be right! I was just going by the book description, would still be interested to actually read it to be more informed To be fair, it didn't seem like he has the approach that "ADHD doesn't exist, it's just bad parents and naughty kids", like the daily mail!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2014 18:52:30 GMT
If the Daily Mail loves Richard Saul....and it appears that it does....you just know it's never going to bode well.... he cites discovering that previously diagnosed cases just turned out to be 'needing glasses' or 'too much coffee' sounds just what we need..... he also thinks this symptom complex that doesn't exist known as 'ADHD' just masks less serious conditions.... in reality ADHD is lethal......the very foundation of far more serious conditions Adolf Hitler loved dogs, children and cakes - and I won't have anything said against cake! So just because the DM has liked him it doesn't automatically follow that the association is toxic. But it does make my spidy senses tingle. From Mighty's description I'd love to read it (I'd wear my extra cynical glasses) just to find out what it's all about. The chances of my deserting the current, mainstream, thinking are thin to anorexic but it's beholden on anyone with a serious attitude to science to leave the door open just in case. I can hear the flying pigs warming up right now
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Post by shapes on Jan 9, 2014 19:42:59 GMT
Ok I'll write a bit more.
"Based on his experience, he offers a shocking conclusion: ADHD is not a condition on its own, but rather a symptom complex caused by over twenty separate conditions—from poor eyesight and giftedness to bipolar disorder and depression—each requiring its own specific treatment."
a) I've never heard eyesight and "giftedness" to be associated with ADHD. Does he believe children are being diagnosed as ADHD-PI when they are actually partially sighted? It makes some sort of sense if you forget that sight problems are going to be ruled out well before a child gets near a diagnosis. As for "giftedness" I'm not sure if he means intelligence, the old chestnut of children simply being bored by their studies and so not behaving / doing homework. Well I am blessed with intelligence but cannot get tasks done despite knowing they will benefit me in the mid-long term. It's far more than simply being bored.
b) It's different for a condition to have common comorbidities than to say that condition can be completely explained by other conditions. ADHD must be present from an early age, bipolar disorder and depression rarely are. The other developmental disorders like dyslexia and dyscalculia tend to be problems with specific tasks but I don't think they fully explain ADHD.
c) If ADHD was not a condition on it's own, it would be unusual for so many people to respond positively to drugs. If somebody had poor eyesight and depression, would MPH help them to see things and lift their mood?
I'm not sure without reading it whether it's all BS but the synopsis comes across that way.
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Post by fuzzywuzzy on Jan 9, 2014 21:57:56 GMT
They're really good points....
However, bipolar disorder being rare in childhood.....that's as much an old chestnut as ADHD only occurring in children
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Post by shapes on Jan 9, 2014 22:29:44 GMT
I'll admit I'm not an expert on bipolar and other conditions. I didn't think bipolar was common in children but I may be wrong. My point was that many of these conditions can be developed whereas ADHD is always present even if the person only runs into difficulties later.
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Post by fuzzywuzzy on Jan 9, 2014 22:38:41 GMT
Don't want to derail this but...... yes, that's the misconception....we are at that stage with bipolar disorder where autism and ADHD were in the 1980's... 60% of adults trace it back to childhood or adolescence....a sizeable proportion believe they were born with it....not predisposed, actually born with it....a differently wired brain....exactly the same as being born autistic or ADHD-challenged/gifted... and then there are the ADHD/bipolar hybrids, but then I will go way off track....
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Post by shapes on Jan 9, 2014 22:54:35 GMT
Fair enough.
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Post by fuzzywuzzy on Jan 10, 2014 11:30:15 GMT
If the Daily Mail loves Richard Saul....and it appears that it does....you just know it's never going to bode well.... Adolf Hitler loved dogs, children and cakes - and I won't have anything said against cake! So just because the DM has liked him it doesn't automatically follow that the association is toxic. First person to come up with a positive mental health story in the Daily Mail....wins a lifetime supply of medication! :DAnd 10 weeks worth of ADHD specific CBT.... Medication is optional.....and can be gifted forward..... extra Brownie points for finding an ADHD positive article
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Post by fuzzywuzzy on Jan 10, 2014 13:45:02 GMT
AADHD Does Not Exist? Wrong, Richard Saul
January 9, 2014 in ADHD and Parenthood, ADHD Cyber Command, ADHD Diagnosis Issues, ADHD Hall of Shame, ADHD in the News, Denial about ADHD, science of ADHD, The Basics | 12 comments
“ADHD makes a great excuse. The diagnosis can be an easy-to-reach-for crutch. Moreover, there’s an attractive element to an ADHD diagnosis, especially in adults. It can be exciting to think of oneself as involved in many things at once, rather than stuck in a boring rut.”
Richard Saul, MD, author of ADHD Does Not Exist
That’s the ticket! You think of your own or your loved one’s ADHD diagnosis as “exciting
If you’re depressed by sensationalistic headlines such as “ADHD Does Not Exist” or quack physicians marketing their unique ability to “find the root cause” of ADHD, then you should skip this post.
Before you go, though, take heart. Remember that the Internet is the Wild West for self-promoters and hucksters. It is not the real world—the world where serious people devote themselves to researching, treating patients, and developing helpful strategies for people with ADHD and their families. The preponderance of medical and scientific evidence says that ADHD Does Exist. And, that is not going to change. We will only continue to refine our knowledge, as has been the course of this condition in the medical literature for centuries.
It has been a long time since the ADHD Roller Coaster Hall of Shame has named new inductees. And, it’s with a heavy heart that I do so now given the flurry of recent headlines.
ADHD skeptics come and go, each with their self-serving salespitch, but they become blips on the radar screen of progress. Undeterred and even unaware of these ridiculous rogues, science keeps marching on. There were far more ADHD-focused scientific papers published by this decade’s third year than were published in all of the 1990s, the so-called “Decade of the Brain.” In labs, clinics, and research centers internationally, there is no “controversy” about ADHD. There is wide and necessary acknowledgement that we don’t know everything, that the human brain is impossibly complex, but we know a great deal.
On the Internet, however, a different ethos prevails: Gaining web traffic and selling dubious books, services, and supplements by confusing the public about ADHD. These hucksters all claim to be “caring for the children,” but listen closely to what they really say and you will find that they unabashedly make unfounded statements that only worsen stigma and misinformation, all while burnishing their own lackluster image.
I believe there is much to lose if we let these people go unchallenged. You and I know these are fringe characters, but many other people do not know that. And that creates problems for everyone.
Recently, with the latest story on ADHD in The New York Times by Alan Schwarz and an outrageously titled book debuting called ADHD Does Not Exist, the floodgates gush open anew. This rogue physician and The New York Times seem to have given every two-bit website and hit-hungry “news organization” carte blanche to perform the neuroscientific equivalent of climate-change denial.
(Forgive me for not providing links, only partial screen images; I refuse to “take the bait” and play into their obvious gambits to increase web traffic on the backs of people with ADHD.)
In a future post, I will de-bunk Schwarz’s scurrilous and cherry-picked arguments. Right now, I’d like to welcome a few of this week’s standouts to the ADHD Roller Coaster Hall of Shame, all directly connected to the promotional machine behind ADHD Does Not Exist. These alleged news organizations stoop to new lows of Yellow Journalism.
As both a journalist and an ADHD expert, I’m astounded that some unknown neurologist in Illinois with virtually no prominence or history of publication is suddenly elevated to equal footing with a preponderance of medical evidence—and accorded worldwide coverage, with none of his statements checked or balanced. (Granted, none of these websites are generally considered reliable, but some still believe that The New York Times is reliable.) All it took was an outrageous book title: ADHD Does Not Exist. And the publicity machine of Harper Collins. The book has apparently already been translated into German and perhaps other languages. The publicity has appeared in the UK, Australia, Germany, and the U.S..
In addition to acting as lackeys for Harper Collins, the following “news outlets” showed very poor judgment in their photo illustrations. If I had the graphic designers’ names, I would welcome them into the Hall of Shame along with the editors and columnists below.
First, there’s that bastion of science reporting, The New York Post, and columnist Kyle Smith; he obviously writes from the press release and never questions the legitimacy of Saul’s opinion or the fact that Saul primarily talks about misdiagnoses and not ADHD itself. (Note: Saul’s idea of misdiagnoses might in fact be accurate diagnoses. I explain more about that he
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2014 15:36:21 GMT
Bit of editing please - that repeated paragraph has messed my noodle up and now I can't read any of it ARGHHHHHHHHH.
I needs to read it!
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Post by fuzzywuzzy on Jan 10, 2014 18:20:48 GMT
Sorry.... it copied the article twice!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2014 18:30:28 GMT
It? Cousin it? It came from outer space? It lives? Control your computer before it controls you MWUHAHAHAHAHAHA HTH
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Post by contrarymary on Jan 10, 2014 18:58:46 GMT
here's the link to fuzzy's article in case anyone wants to read the second half! interesting - thanks fuzzy
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Post by fuzzywuzzy on Jan 10, 2014 19:00:48 GMT
Woo hoo.... Superwoman's back in business!
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Post by contrarymary on Jan 10, 2014 19:15:30 GMT
Woo hoo.... Superwoman's back in business! thank you fuzzy, but today i think superwoman would be JJ , esp after her Mammoth, gargantuan, astonishing effort with the composition extraordinaire of a letter to the BMA if i'd managed to remember why i'd gone the GP this morning that would have been super enough for me - as it was i sat in front of him and had to admit i had no idea why i was there, but as i'd seen the appt in my diary i thought i'd better turn up
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paul
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Post by paul on Jan 13, 2014 21:45:17 GMT
I know there have been lots if learned and well researched posts on this subject by my fellow aflictees - but I have some actual research -
I had new glasses a week ago my eyesight was worse than before
I still have ADHD - I can now see distractions a lot easier
That's a fact
However I do drink a lot of very very strong coffee.......
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paul
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Post by paul on Jan 13, 2014 22:50:22 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2014 18:49:45 GMT
Meanwhile, Jeff, over at Jeff's Add Mind, has picked up on some of the comments left by readers of a similar article over at the Washington Times entitled, " ADHD a fake disorder, neurologist-turned-author says". And he's incensed, it appears, at their utter ignorance and banality, rather than the opinions of one "expert" in the field, namely Dr Richard Saul MD who he leaves to someone else. Anyway, Jeff ends off with the opinion of that "someone else", one ADHD commentator and author, Gina Pera who comes back at Saul with some venom here. Nice to see the Daily Mail has waded in too, just to concur with fuzzywuzzy et al, but we knew that would happen. Anyway, noticed this comment by a contributor (Anjie Mallion) below the article (you will need to scroll down where the link has been highlighted with a red line down the left), and which I found quite uplifting.
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Post by Kathymel on Jan 14, 2014 19:06:28 GMT
if i'd managed to remember why i'd gone the GP this morning that would have been super enough for me - as it was i sat in front of him and had to admit i had no idea why i was there, but as i'd seen the appt in my diary i thought i'd better turn up Mary, that made my day. I've been sat here giggling for 5 minutes.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2014 21:34:57 GMT
Yes I got it downloaded onto my kindle, skim read it, meant to go back but forgot. Story of my life. Just reading it properly again now... ...thanks paul, that was a nice article. Gave me a few more insights - not least the realisation that pre-12 confirmation of diagnosis for adults could possibly be in place to prevent misdiagnosis with dementia and age related mental deterioration. Probably read elsewhere without taking it in properly. As I and others have said before, they really need to get a handle on adult ADD diagnosis
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Post by fuzzywuzzy on Mar 6, 2014 22:37:56 GMT
Here is Richard Saul in the flesh.... link
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