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Post by Wavey75 on Feb 24, 2016 13:50:03 GMT
So the date for the EU referendum is now set for Thursday 23rd June 2016 ( source here) and now we have 4 months to decide if we want to stay IN the EU or LEAVE the EU, something that has never been done before and no one can say with any certainty what will happen if the vote is in favour of a Brexit. I can see that to remain a apart of the EU is advantageous to our economy, but the cost of membership is that laws are set not in our own democracy ( or lack thereof) but in another country by people who were not elected but chosen. I am 100% against any system where officials are not elected, regardless of how beneficial it is to us or not. The fact that democracy has been promised to us for over 40 years and it has still not happened is a clear message that it's simply never going to happen and maybe with the departure of the UK from the EU, may be enough to force a change in thinking that other member states may follow our example and leave Brussels in turmoil - just long enough in the confusion that someone steps in and decrees that democracy is a must. Thoughts anyone?
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Craigj
Member's not posted much yet
Posts: 45
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Post by Craigj on Feb 24, 2016 18:26:46 GMT
What's this Gota do with adhd?
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Craigj
Member's not posted much yet
Posts: 45
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Post by Craigj on Feb 24, 2016 18:32:14 GMT
I'll take back. Dunno how to delete it
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Post by Kathymel on Feb 25, 2016 1:26:43 GMT
Here's my thoughts:
The European union was partly formed to bring countries closer together and reduce the probability of war between European nations. We have had the longest period of peace in this area, partly as a result of this. This is a good thing.
Yes, you could say that, at the moment, there are neo-liberalist movements throughout Europe who have their own agendas and who are putting the needs of ordinary people at the bottom of their priorities. However, we have one of the worst governments in that respect and leaving the EU would put as completely at their mercy. (At least until 2020, anyway.)
Some within the EU are working to water down the impact of the TTIP agreement with the US. At the very least, the socialist elements of the EU will try to stop vast corporations getting hold of services like the NHS (and stop them suing the governments who try to oppose that). If we leave, Cameron and his cabinet will create a new agreement which sells everything wholesale with no protections.
The Conservative government are trying to distance themselves from human rights laws. They want to do away with the European Bill of Human Rights and introduce a British Bill which reduces the rights of workers and just about everyone else.
You can't change something from the outside. If we stay in, we will have the opportunity to be a force for change.
I'm not saying the EU is great, just that the alternative is unthinkably awful. I would rather have the additional human rights protections that the EU affords people with disabilities, than put myself at the mercy of an unencumbered Conservative Party who have shown themselves to be greedy, merciless and unfeeling and who put corporate profit at the top of their agenda, over the needs of desperate families and people with disabilities.
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Post by Wavey75 on Feb 25, 2016 12:07:17 GMT
I agree with everything you've said. But...
It seems that the Conservatives are doing all of those awful things we fear they'll do if we leave the EU right now anyway. We're the only country to be investigated by the United Nations for the treatment of the disabled.
So, it seems to me that being a member of the EU is not stopping the Tories from doing what they want to do anyway.
The question really is - do we want to spend more than we get out of it to be a part of a system that's not democratic.
If we leave the EU, we also remove the possibility of being signed up to TTIP too.
I think at the moment, until 2020 the choice is the lesser of 2 evils - staying in the EU with the tories doing what they want or leaving the EU with the tories doing what they want.
It's actually quite depressing really. I see no upside ot anything to look forward to if we stay in or leave the EU.
The only possible thing might be that if the UK leaves the EU, it might start a chain reaction that forces a change for the better. The EU was formed so that our economies relied upon each other to keep the peace and prevent wars.
So maybe a single country leaving might cause other member countries to leave also and then and only then would Brussels start to give into change.
Food for thought.
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Post by JJ on Feb 25, 2016 21:24:54 GMT
I've got loads of opinions on this, but too tired to comment right now. But, (re Kathymel post) just mentioning here that the Human Rights thing is nothing to do with our membership of the EU, they're separate things and we would still be signed up to the European Convention on Human Rights whether we were in Europe or not.
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Post by Kathymel on Feb 26, 2016 2:42:05 GMT
I've got loads of opinions on this, but too tired to comment right now. But, (re Kathymel post) just mentioning here that the Human Rights thing is nothing to do with our membership of the EU, they're separate things and we would still be signed up to the European Convention on Human Rights whether we were in Europe or not. Yes, I wasn't clear. They are separate, but a condition of becoming a member of the European Union is that countries must have ratified the ECHR. Therefore, if we leave, we would no longer have to abide by it. This research briefing clarifies the EU position on the ECHR and describes some of the wriggling that MPs have been doing to try to work their way round it. The quote attributed to QCs Faulks and Fisher at the top of page five seems either breath-takingly naive or willfully blind, given the UN had already declared the Bedroom Tax to be in contravention of human rights legislation and, less than five months later, launched an investigation into disability rights violations.
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Post by JJ on Feb 26, 2016 4:52:00 GMT
Can you put that link in again Kathymel - I can't seem to open it. It's my understanding that it is a proviso, but the ECHR predates the EU - so before the referendum became a reality and when talk was only of them repealing the HRA, the question was whether the UK could remain a member of the EU if it repealed the HRA and also withdrew from the ECHR, rather than the other way round. I didn't find your research briefing on it earlier, but what I've read this eve has made it less clear for me, so Im def interested in reading it. I came on here to post this Research briefing on EU Feb 16 which sets out all the main areas of debate for in or out and is definitely useful. (The stuff on human rights is around p99 of the full document, I need to read it again not at 4am , so I can't summarise what it said right now.) Wavey75 you should look at this briefing too
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Post by Kathymel on Feb 26, 2016 12:53:44 GMT
I just noticed the attachment button, so I've uploaded the pdf, JJ. It's only a short briefing, this one. Will have to take a deep breath to look at yours. Attachments:SN06577.pdf (237.32 KB)
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Post by Kathymel on Feb 26, 2016 13:03:21 GMT
I just read the summary of the briefing, JJ. This on its own would be enough to convince me, given that the government are forcing through legislation to limit the power of unions: Employment
An EU exit could foreshadow significant change to UK employment law, much of which flows from Europe. The Government would face pressure from employers’ associations to repeal or amend some of the more controversial EU-derived employment laws, such as the Working Time Regulations 1998 and Agency Worker Regulations 2010.
But trade unions would probably strongly oppose any perceived rowing back on rights originating from the ‘Social Chapter’.
Withdrawal from the EU would allow for change to the following areas of employment law, which stem largely from Europe: annual leave, agency worker rights, part-time worker rights, fixed-term worker rights, collective redundancy, paternity, maternity and parental leave, protection of employment upon the transfer of a business and anti-discrimination legislation.Wavey75, all of the above rights would be affected for the worse.
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Post by clubby on Feb 27, 2016 12:22:07 GMT
Interesting debate,
I have no idea what to vote.
I hate what the EU is doing to small businesses. Most of my adhd related stress stems from the impossible compliance together with the life crippling fines. Utterly wicked.
On the other hand, Britain has more goody two shoes jobs worths to oversee the dastardly regs. Other EU countries have the gumption to tell EU officials to get stuffed.
Personally I think the problem lies at home.
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Post by Wavey75 on Apr 23, 2016 8:24:26 GMT
With less than 9 weeks to go (as of 23rd April 2016) I am still not sure about what way to vote in this upcomming EU referendum.
One thing I do know is, no one else can really say with certainty what would happen if we left the EU.
Has anyone been convinced from undecided to either Stay or Leave, if so what convinced them?
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Post by Mouse on Apr 23, 2016 14:01:41 GMT
Go.
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Post by Wavey75 on Apr 23, 2016 17:59:24 GMT
Go what or where Mouse ? Where you on the fence and are now convinced one way or another? what convinced you?
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Post by Mouse on Apr 24, 2016 8:44:04 GMT
Go potty trying to decide what would be best way to vote but actually believe we are stuffed whichever way the vote goes.
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