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Post by magicnick1990 on Jul 13, 2009 0:05:19 GMT
I'm not trying to start a debate on Manson here.
I've looked into the case and have my opinions on what I think he did n didn't do and what level of responsibility he holds to the accounts.
But I just wanted to share this speech / poem from him:
I believe it's from the 70's not long after he was imprisoned.
Putting aside the crimes and what you think of that, I think it's a fantastic speech. So poetic and on-point to a large degree philosophically.
I actually agree with a lot of Manson's views on society, some are misguided and some are too extreme but some are spot on.
I think a lot of people can't remove their frame of reference away from the crimes though and take a speech like that for what it is. Like my Mum is very naive in that sense. Kind of like "Well he's a nutter so it's not good".
Regardless of whether he's a bad person or not, I still admire his intelligence and certainly that speech.
That's an uneducated man too. He had an above average IQ in his 20's having grew up without parents, schooling... On the streets and in prison cells. Just imagine how intelligent he could of been had he lived a proper life. I think he could of been a serious academic.
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Post by twix on Jul 13, 2009 7:45:33 GMT
Well I will try to respond to that without having a debate on Manson!
Given what you say I hope you won't be offended if I speak my mind.
My view is that I would deliberately choose to keep the crimes in my frame of reference for a speech like that that. I think that in not doing so it is you being naive. That speech is someone who has chosen to do bad things trying to justify what they have done by saying that everyone else is in the wrong so what he did wasn't so bad. It has become fashionable to be "non judgemental". It is not a fashion I subscribe to. I make my judgements on peoples actions and intentions.
He may be intelligent, maybe his life could have been different but that speech does nothing for me.
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Post by magicnick1990 on Jul 13, 2009 23:10:19 GMT
I'm not saying to not be judgemental or that I subscribe to any PC bullshit either.
What I'm saying is his alleged crimes are irrelevent in regards to that speech lol. It's a philosophical, poetic speech on society.
Forget it's Manson saying it. Just hear the speech and the poetry in it. I think it's naive to not be able to remove the reference for the sake of true appreciation regardless of what he's done.
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Post by roland on Jul 14, 2009 8:09:43 GMT
Hi nick or jon,
I listened to it and I agree that it does seem poetic and the cadence is almost hypnotic, it sort of reminded me of rap, but what really interested me about it is that it's very externally oriented, and I didn't get any sense of a personality behind the speaker's voice.
That actually, as far as I was concerned, gave it an eerie feeling, because usually when we read or hear poetry, we can get a sense of who the speaker in the poem is, even if it's an assumed persona adopted by the poet, and I didn't get that sense from this speech.
So, that makes the speech interesting. How can someone string words together so that they make sense and even sound true, and yet not inject any personality (real or assumed) into the speech? Evaluating the speech on its own merits could be an interesting exercise.
Since, however, it is almost impossible to separate the speech from what we know of Manson, it seemed to me that the speech revealed that he probably has no empathy at all for others; just an extreme contempt. Very scary!
Thanks for posting this nick or jon, because it does raise some interesting questions about states of mind and empathy, as well as perceptions of society.
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Post by lily on Jul 14, 2009 9:59:45 GMT
Well you will probably think im being super naive here but I cant even bring myself to click on that link. Sorry. I just cant listen to him because I so strongly disagree with everything about him. I know I might be being small minded not listening to it but I agree with twix about judging people on their actions and intentions.
Im afraid I cant remove my frame of reference either, sorry! I just cant relate to him on any level even if his speech is excellent.
Lily x
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Post by redneck on Jul 14, 2009 11:34:46 GMT
Hmm .... Adolf Hitler was an extremely charismatic personality with a penchant for hypnotic oratory.
Nuff said really.
RR
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2009 20:56:53 GMT
His crime's aren't alleged, as you put it, they are proven.
He is a pitifully disturbed individual, who was, among others, responsible for visiting the most vile pain, anguish and suffering on a string of victims.
I fail to see why I, or anyone else, should have any respect for this man.
If you want poetry, try Milton, Wilfred Owen or Betjeman.
If you want speeches on society, try Martin Luther King.
When the world is brimming with thinkers, poets and orators of true greatness. Why would you waste your time on manson's mediocrity?
-Matt
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Post by redneck on Jul 15, 2009 16:16:06 GMT
Here Here Matt! Well Said RR
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Post by roland on Jul 15, 2009 17:50:36 GMT
Not sure I'd include Betjeman with Milton, how about Gerard Manley Hopkins
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2009 19:31:37 GMT
I just fancied listing people who were stylistically diverse. not saying their skill is comparable.
marvelousmatt's essential guide to poetry, will have to wait for another thread! ;D
though in your honour, i'll include an epic poem about Charlemagne!
-m
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Post by roland on Jul 15, 2009 21:49:58 GMT
Thanks matt
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