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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2009 13:14:30 GMT
Ive been becoming a little obsessed I think over understanding what is wrong with my brain. Shockaroonie ;D
I was hoping people may be able to contribute to my thought processes. Here goes.
Dopamine - Many functions in the brain including roles in behavior and cognition, voluntary movement, motivation and reward, inhibition of prolactin production (involved in lactation), sleep, mood, attention, and learning.
Serotonin - involved in control of appetite, sleep, memory and learning, temperature regulation, mood, behavior (including sexual and hallucinogenic behavior), cardiovascular function, muscle contraction, endocrine regulation, and depression.
Now both these chemicals are linked by the fact that as the concentration of one is increased, the concentration of the other decreases. So by my reckoning it means that they are both involved in the same processes as one controls the other. Now without going to deeply into the actual processes the interaction is fairly simple. As a serotonin receptor is activated (ie it is transporting a serotonin molecule) then it stimulates other areas of the brain to produce dopamine or conversely inhibits dopamine production. Both dopamine and serotonin have antagonistic action so that they can regulate each others activity.
Now this is where everything begins to get complicated. Can anyone explain to me where these chemicals are actively involved and to what end. Ive read so many conflicting statements and im trying to swirl them around to get them to make sense. Im under the impression that the inattentive part of ADHD comes from low dopamine levels. Does this mean that its down to dopamine concentration or is it due to the problem with the dopamine transporter? The reason this is an issue is because dopamine activation regulates serotonin activity by its action so by its inaction then its also causing problems with the serotonin system.
So the point I am at right now is trying to decipher what these chemicals actually do because they are involved in an amazing amount of processes/functions in the brain. Understanding how they interact is clearly core to ADHD as far as I am concerned. One of the things that has confused me (or inspired me?) of late has been that depression is caused by low dopamine yet they treat that by blocking serotonin receptors. This agruably increases dopamine as a result but it doesnt work properly for a number of reasons which Im not going to go into. The point im getting at is why do the drug companies not target the dopamine level directly. As far as I am concerned there is a lot of conflict in my head regarding understanding of whats going on and how these things are treated/approached.
Can anyone wade through that and further my understanding of whats going on?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2009 13:16:18 GMT
As you can decipher I am beginning to become more than a little disenchanted by my questions not being answered by my Psych. And ive just had this realisation that Im getting myself into a very complicated area here lol.
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Post by andy12345 on Oct 15, 2009 14:22:09 GMT
Groan, what a question. what causes adhd? I believe russell barkley answered a lot of that in his speeches. Madscot, I have no doubt that you can certainly learn the answers to many of the questions eventually lol. I tried for some time, but.......zzzzzzzzz. I also have no doubt that you will know most of what I am posting in this response, but if you learn something to further your mission, then good.... You only mention 2 neurotransmitters......What about the others and their effects on each other argh. Surely they are important? Prolactin has a very powerful effect as well apparently. Read my recent post link in general (they drugged a student with anti dopamine drugs and turned him into an anxious, doubtful, almost adhdlike person within hours..days.) I don't think they checked hormone levels or such which of course could be altered due to the lowered dopamine etc. The link www.reuniting.info/science/articles/acute_dopamine_depletion_causes_psychological_distressDopamine really, as you probably know, is the big thing which the world thrives on. If your dopamine is totally blocked, no one would survive long, in fact I doubt they would even move. or could not. Look at low dopamine symptoms www.drketi.com/lowSerotonDopamine.htmland high prolactin blah Prolactin has a very powerful effect as well apparently www.entelechyjournal.com/pulling_away_after_sex1.htmProlactin has a very powerful effect as well apparently What about the effect of norepinephrine and/or dopamine on each other and on glucose levels in the brain? I have quite a few articles lying around but it's the same old same old. Oh, I was tempted to get stuck into this thread but I just don't really have the enthusiasm anymore. Good luck and at least you have the educated background to link more things together........ Ps. for some reason I just sort of threw this post togetherr........can't think why?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2009 17:38:28 GMT
Okay brainy chaps, why is (or how can) adhd (be) genetically passed on in 75% of cases? Am i right? I think i read that.
I have 4 children, 1 is diagnosed, 1 being assessed, 2 are perfectly unaffected. My birth-mother had bi-polar. My husband is dyslexic; We're a complicated family!
I'm trying to understand why brain deficiencies are genetic?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2009 22:15:08 GMT
"So by my reckoning it means that they are both involved in the same processes as one controls the other"
I think there's a problem here. I don't think they're that intrinsically, interdependently linked. One doesn't control the other. They just, as whatshisname goes on to discuss in this thread, two of the many chemicals involved in the many moods available to us.
Simplistically, as I understand it, dopamine is primarily involved in reward. Mentally rewarding ourselves. From whatever stimulus to whatever satisfying feeling. Serrotonin is more complex. So I'm not even going to bother trying.
I'm bored now with my own bollocks.
Night then.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2009 11:31:07 GMT
Andy I realise there are a lot of other factors involved but if u want to understand something you gotta try and simplify situations and then try and work in other things. Simone, the genetic link to ADHD is mainly due to the fact that the condition itself is thought to stem from multiple gene mutations. These gene mutations can then be passed on, and the fact it is thought to be multiple mutations is the reason why it is such a complex disorder. All the comorbid conditions and similar conditions are linked in some way also so its not uncommon to have a complicated family. My family is the same, dyslexia, ASD, ADHD and behavioural disorders aplenty TiP. I know what you mean but they are intrinsically linked. We just havent figured out whats going on. When you increase concentration of one, the other decreases. That tells me there is definitely some sort of interaction. The fact that low dopamine levels in depression are treated with SSRIs should back me up. I must admit to being slightly worried of late regarding my meds. What Ive done all my life is take drugs that have raised my dopamine levels but my worry is that the MPH is screwing with other parts of the system. Haha how funny is this, im worried about the MPH when Ive been filling my boots for years. My god how strange.
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Post by andy12345 on Oct 17, 2009 19:35:24 GMT
If you can simplify my brain, please let me know. It would be good just to say "oiiiiii brain.......Work!"
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Post by boo on Oct 17, 2009 19:42:29 GMT
amen to that!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2009 21:45:07 GMT
I was thinking, (yes it does happen sometimes) do you think in the future there will be diffrent types like so many conditions get brocken down.
also have you done somthink to your logo scott as its gone more defined.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2009 11:20:49 GMT
You have touched on something I have been wondering about Safe. If low dopamine brings us the inattentive symptoms and high levels cause they hyper symptoms. Doesnt that mean that we have different conditions. Or does it mean that we fluctuate between highs and lows to produce the different, contradictory sides? If that is the case then its more complicated than I thought. So how can we have both sides of the equation if that is the case?
This is why I started trying to understand whats going on with us because there seems to be a lot of contradictory evidence. Is it possible that ADHD is caused by whatever regulates dopamine/serotonin? And is also possible that we can be fluctuating our levels of dopamine, rather than just having low levels (or a dysfunctional transporter)? Or is it possible that both the inattentive and hyper types are just 2 completely different conditions? One characterised by low dopamine levels and the other by high dopamine levels.
Questions galore!!!!! I always knew I was meant to be a scientist cos Im a right nosey b@st@rd lol ;D
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Post by boo on Oct 18, 2009 14:30:25 GMT
so where would that leave the combined types? i know its not adhd related but i came across this piece about dopamine levels in parkinsons patients and i thought it was interesting and had a bearing on your thoughts here www.news-medical.net/news/2008/08/10/40602.aspx
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Post by boo on Oct 18, 2009 14:57:38 GMT
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Post by andy12345 on Oct 18, 2009 15:25:20 GMT
DId anyone actually read my signature link document that was written in 2002 that I have had in my signature since I joined 4 months ago? It details serotonin, dopamine, GABA, norepinephrine. Does not list Acetylcholine for some reason (maybe research is more recent on that) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetylcholine (Always a place to start...controversies aside.) I always wanted opinions on it............................................................
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Post by andy12345 on Oct 18, 2009 15:28:36 GMT
And another thing to think about.
What are the limits of one's IQ score potential, working memory, logic, mood stability etc, when every neurotransmitter and essential nutrient is in optimum or above optimum levels?
I doubt that anyone knows the answer to this yet.......
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Post by andy12345 on Oct 18, 2009 16:04:56 GMT
QUOTE You have touched on something I have been wondering about Safe. If low dopamine brings us the inattentive symptoms and high levels cause they hyper symptoms. Doesnt that mean that we have different conditions END I have a different thought on that...... (probably quite influenced by the helpful document in my signature .....well I consider it helpful ) As dopamine goes lower and lower, the symptoms of Parkinsons disease get more predominant, from what I have read. So, therefore, do we become more mentally sluggish as the dopamine slips down... So, about a year ago, I thought hmmmmmmm. "untreated" symptoms - no drugs whatsoever - not even tea coffee. Lowest dopamine - severe parkinsons (after a long enough time of low dopamine status) Slightly higher - moderate parkinsons. (as above) slightly higher - mild parkinsons.. slightly higher - severe inattentive or hyperactive= but only one, not the other. (discuss) slightly higher - as above- the other one (discuss) slightly higher- moving into the realms of stable concentration.... ie average - above average and perhaps feeling "normal" slightly higher - above average concentration - equivalent of hyperfocus but with the ability to break off? Not adhd symptomatic. slightly higher- starting to lock on to one thing only....no balance good in some ways, bad in others. slightly higher - approaching paranoia- and singlemindedness - similar to low GABA - mania? but not in the same way. slightly higher - paranoia delusions, biscuits talking to you, voices, people. ================= slightly higher apparently more susceptible to psychosis related behaviour.....maybe possible to kill people.... ie EXTREMELY high levels of dopamine only caused by serious genetic issues and or drug abuse. (NOTE- I expect that it takes an adhd person - MORE drug consumption to ever reach this stage......as they are naturally LOWER in dopamine....... However, there does appear to be controversy on the dopamine cause of psychosis due to the fact that dopamine lowering drugs still take a few days to stop a person's "classic high dopamine" psychosis symptoms.....IF so, then what else is at play? ====================== Anyway, that's my opinion, does not make it true though.....although I could probably check online........ Well, we could discuss this in detail. Some of you are more aware of what higher levels of dopamine do for you...............via self medication. Also, reading what I posted about prolactin as well and the fact that dopamine can be a prolactin stimulator or inhibitors just adds more "simple" things to look at... Anyway, for those who do have the energy, good luck.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2009 10:37:48 GMT
Okay brainy chaps, why is (or how can) adhd (be) genetically passed on in 75% of cases? Am i right? I think i read that. I have 4 children, 1 is diagnosed, 1 being assessed, 2 are perfectly unaffected. My birth-mother had bi-polar. My husband is dyslexic; We're a complicated family! I'm trying to understand why brain deficiencies are genetic? I reckon that 75% figure is wrong and that it's probably well over 90% inherited. First off - what causes ADHD? The non inherited cases are from brain trauma - severe blows to the head or severe illness eg meningitis. Otherwise it comes from a/both parents. I'm not up on the latest research but there does seem to be a genetic difference in ADHDers so the chances of a ADHDer passing it on is high - like hair colour or intelligence. So if you have four kids and one parent with the ADHD gene then two with ADHD seems reasonable - it could be that all or none of them inherit the gene. In your case you say two show no sign of any neurological condition BUT this doesn't mean they haven't got the gene - they may not, or it means they aren't affected by it to a degree that is noticeable and their kids could inherit the gene and, in turn, either show up as ADHD or not - after all ADHD isn't judged by the gene but by exhibiting the symptoms. I have heard that the gene has been present in humans for a million years (don't take that as gospel - the exact gene hasn't conclusively been identified) but if it is ancient it's a difference that is stored and deployed regularly to 'see' if it is an advantage - which appears to be the case when it isn't debilitating and the circumstances are correct ie times of flux.
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