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Post by magicnick1990 on Nov 13, 2009 13:09:12 GMT
Okay firstly. I don't wanna make this post about sleep disorders. Most of us have them, we all know ADHD is often linked to them as well. So I don't wanna discuss that directly.
More... Interestingly to me is this...
Now, supposedly, one of the critical genetic problems with ADHD is the dopamine receptors. Usually we have a LACK of dopamine. This is why stimulants help as they increase our dopamine gradually...
Okay. But what I've noticed, for a while now is that when I have no sleep (I often stay up all night into the next day) my mood is increased. It has a positive effect.
I always hyper-think and have internal restlessness in terms of non-stop info hunting, non-stop debating etc. But in terms of my external apparent mood. I'm often naturally 'down'. I mean, I assume this is because of the lack of dopamine.
I smile a lot less, it takes more to make me laugh, I often get annoyed just speaking to people. Especially when I know what like, my mum etc. are going to say well before they finish the sentence and I'm usually busy so usually snap or try to hurry my response.
ANYWAY! God, fucking off-course typing. Anyway, so yeah, lack of sleep oddly seems to make me... More tolerant, more... Capable of things. More able to focus, more friendly, generally more 'up'.
I find this very odd as one of the main dopamine DETRACTORS is lack of sleep so how could me unaturally reducing my dopamine level(s) even further via means of unhealthy sleep deprivation possibly have the opposite effect.
It feels by the way, quite similar to Ritalin. I'm not on them yet but have tried some release capsules in the past (don't ask).
But how could literally the two opposite actions create the same reaction. If I already have abnormally low dopamine which creates my dizzy focus, easy distraction rates, low-mood etc. Then how the fuck could reducing it even more... Make me... Happier, more capable, more focused etc.
I'm puzzled. Obviously some of my basic motor reactions are slo.... Oh, hangon. I haven't figured it out but I hit a nerve half way through typing that bit lol... Your motor functions are slowed with lack of sleep but... Isit possible that it's some how balancing out my executive functions since...
ADHD is essentially, over-developed motor functions and under-developed executive functions... So... If my motor functions are over-devloped, this is creating my inbalance in behaviour and thought processes.
So it's almost like a fix but in a different way. Since stimulants increase your dopamine to in a way... Sharpen up your executive functions... If an ADHD person has a lack of sleep then they essentially... Slow down their motor functions. Thus - Creating a balance, in a different way... ? Even though the executive functions may be under-developed still, since the motors are slowed, it's more manageable?
Can anyone relate to this, does this have a similar effect on any of you and are any of you more knowledgeable than me so that you could expand on the last speculation I made?
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Post by andy12345 on Nov 13, 2009 16:28:58 GMT
I only have one question........
Why do "overtired" "non ADHD" children become demon jump around the house types when they are so "tired"? (presuming that they are children without any external negative factors causing them to be so jumpy)
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Post by magicnick1990 on Nov 13, 2009 16:51:49 GMT
Erm, I don't know. Kind of confused by your response. Not what you're saying, I see your point but don't know... I'm confused as to what point you're making?
What are you trying to say with that and how does it relate to the post? I'm not being assy by the way lol, I'm genuinely interested.
Also, on the subject of Child ADHD. I personally feel the diagnosis is less responsible and less effective in children. A lot of kids are hyperactive and don't have ADHD or may not and get diagnosed.
Erm... I think you should leave ADHD diagnosis to a certain age minimum. I think it can be controlled to a degree as a child but child behaviour will sometimes seek the upshots regardless so...
I just think it's more responsible and proper to wait until at least say 16. It's the type of disorder, in my opinion, that should require the patient to know about the disorder and be able to self-diagnose effectively and in detail.
Not that 16 is an ideal age for that but it's an age where you're old enough to work with some proper feedback of mind.
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Post by andy12345 on Nov 13, 2009 22:17:40 GMT
Hmm,
I was feeling a bit mentally lazy at the time..
I was not really answering your question, but was throwing in another contradictory topic...
I have heard for many years, the term "overtired", usually accompanied by irrational, more energised, uncontrollable behaviour from children.
I think most observers have seen this.
So, I wonder why this happens when they are meant to be supertired.?
Also, why do you become more socially compatible when you are awake for so long, when you should be drained and more unstable?
ps I believe I've noticed a simillar reaction in myself as I used to stay awake for about 32 hours sometimes, but that all stopped when I hit about 23 ish, and became lethargicman.
Goood luck lol.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2009 22:39:53 GMT
Ooo know grumpy if I dont get at least 4 hours drove straight for 48 hours once that was scary towards the end watching the sun rise while driving was cool though
Dopamine see the text I sent you LYAO
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Post by andy12345 on Nov 13, 2009 23:47:25 GMT
Nick, www.benbest.com/science/anatmind/anatmd10.html#serotoninSleep deprivation increases serotonin release in the SCN [BRAIN RESEARCH 909:81-91 (2001)]. Serotonin as you have no doubt studied, is very important in brain and body. If serotonin can be increased, what else is? _________________________ www.bodybuilding.com/fun/sleep101_maximize_muscle_recovery.htmQUOTE In the evening hours, when light levels decrease, your body increases the output of chemicals like serotonin, melatonin and GABA while simultaneously decreasing alert inducing chemicals. This allows you to relax and prepare for sleep END Now, if you don't already know GABA gets raised in certain circumstances, drinking, drugs etc. The higher it's level, the more calming the effect on the brain, by clamping down on the synapse activity. It just may be the case, that you hit a sweet point of better brain synchronisation at a certain point of sleep deprivation.. Remember though, for those that consume a fatal buildup of alcohol/drugs, the GABA will be raised to the point of total brain shutdown, ie. errr. the end. Apparently in manic cycles of bipolar........GABA is very low which can certainly start or assist the triggering of the bipolar cycle. Read my sig 5 page link......."chemical imbalance" if you have not already where a lot of this is explained (its where I started last year lol)
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Post by magicnick1990 on Nov 14, 2009 8:22:23 GMT
Ah okay Serotonin is released, that makes sense now.
I originally assumed dopamine was being forcefully released due to you forcing your body to unaturally stay awake but, similar brain energy so makes sense that it'd be beneficial in those aspects.
I had thought that maybe it slowed down the motor functions and since people with ADHD usually have under-developed executive functions and over-developed motor functions, I thought it was balancing it out. Not balancing it out but because the over-developed part was being... Forcefully retarded if you will, maybe it becomes more manageable haha.
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Post by andy12345 on Nov 14, 2009 9:34:36 GMT
who knows? Until it's proven otherwise, you might be right on the motor slow down. That's what science is all about..
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2009 9:49:40 GMT
People with manic depression are often triggered into mania by lack of sleep. It's very dangerous for them to, for example, start obsessively working on an intensive project, neglecting sleep etc., as it is one of the major triggers of a manic episode. Again, the serotonin link must be important here.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2009 11:47:48 GMT
Ye I heard something like that gavbelcher.
before I was on meds used to have alot of sleep as couldnt cope get all wound up but if had good sleep was able to manage better with stress, nothing worse than having ADHD and having to go to work with no sleep may as well stay in bed as get nothing done in work.
Infact ave just woke up having some weird dream about a big hotel like a theme park and someone was drinking a bottle of wine and the disney staff were saying no you have to drink Coke a Cola, dreams are crazy things especially when you can remember them Ive been thinking about disney as I was there this time last year and it was good. But feckin freezing cold next time have to be florida, told captain hook hook he had a boggy and to give it a scratch and he wasnt very amused LOL
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Post by magicnick1990 on Nov 15, 2009 12:42:13 GMT
Well this is almost what happens to me but I'm 99% sure I have ADHD. I know disorders can co-exist but manic depression is a very serious mental issue, I doubt those two would co-exist?
But I get very excited paritcularly with no sleep. I think ten times faster and usually start writing a book or trying to formulate some fantastic theory lmao. I also love debating much more with no sleep.
My thinking seems to be more precise. Might just be because of the serotonin increase though.
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Post by andy12345 on Nov 15, 2009 13:38:39 GMT
Nick, did you read my chemical imbalance link, particularly the part about manic people trying to invent warp drive, or translating the bible into hillbilly etc? I am sure things can co-exist. Also, I believe the manic phase of bipolar I means one will be up for days without sleep or very little, bipolar II is slightly less days, but research is still in flux, so things can be tweaked here and there. WHat happens to a person when their nutritional intake is perfect "for them"? what would change? Who knows what is perfect for them? There could be a couple of genetic issues that reduce absorbtion, production of some key elements, who knows? Interesting, because GABA is linked with manic cycles. My previous post explained how darkness onset (obviously influenced by the pineal gland) causes the brain to release extra doses of neurotransmitters including GABA. I could not find out if GABA increases or decreases during lack of sleep. If it drops, then it can easily predict a manic cycle............ The trouble is though, that GABA is an inhibitor. The higher it goes, the slower the synapses go. This is good, as having a slow brain, may be less prone to thinking errors AKA bugs......lol IF GABA goes up, your synapses will be slower than before. As I wrote previously, your synchronisation will be better. Maybe you interpret 10 x faster thinking when its actually better synchronisation so it gets you there faster? ??
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2009 15:44:14 GMT
Hi is that you with your son in the pic safesound? its good to put face to name.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2009 16:34:07 GMT
NO he's growing a head out of his chest?! Must hurt!!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2009 16:35:14 GMT
WE should all put pics up, i'd like to see everyone, we're shy here!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2009 17:24:14 GMT
Its my blue eyed girl see the pig tails gorgous thing, never mind
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2009 17:35:51 GMT
AWww i take the head comment back!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2009 18:26:53 GMT
No need that was in the wok in Fingerola Costa del in the summer, Good time!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2009 18:42:48 GMT
Hi sorry, wasn't suggesting that what you describe is symptomatic of manic depression, just drawing a parallel. Would personally suspect cutting back on sleep to be dangerous all the same.
Yeah, manic depression and ADHD certainly can coexist, although the two are in IMHO overdiagnosed together in America and I don't doubt they will be at some point in the future here too.
Interestingly, I once had a student at the learning disabilities college I used to work at who was convinced her had "cured" himself of asperger's by staying up for several consecutive days. I think part of this will be about neurotransmitters etc., but also that part is about perception and decreased self-awareness? As with an excess of caffeine (which often follows a lack of sleep) I often am less aware of myself, of any faux pas I may make (I am ADHD and Asperger's with a consequent social difficulty) and less aware of my own difficulties after a lack of sleep because my brain is pushing itself forwards, driving off adrenalin etc. Objectively, I think the difference, for me at least, is either less than I believe it to be, or, more likely, in the other direction. It may be rather like drivers who maintain that their reactions are improved by alcohol (and there are a lot of them).
Sorry, that sounds like I'm dismissing your experience. I'm not doing that, I have also felt really on the ball following a poor night's sleep. I think it is the body in emergency mode, assuming that if you are subsisting on so little sleep, it is for a crisis situation (as it often is): exams, crucial projects at work etc etc. But I had experiences of profound mood swings and manic depression when I was younger so I remain aware of the potential triggers.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2009 18:43:08 GMT
I couldn't work out the whole photo thing
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Post by andy12345 on Nov 15, 2009 19:09:48 GMT
Gav, interesting points. Perhaps a depleted brain does become less error checking or maybe its a mix of both. Unless one is independently assessed, perhaps it would be unclear either way?
I know that when I have stayed up for a while, past 24 hours, I feel more placid, but perhaps I am lightheaded and in a world all of my own.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2009 19:50:50 GMT
I think I have had one and I've had the other so yeah the jury's out with me. I've gone in to work (when I was working) having to start from the off with the organisational skills I usually lack, and actually getting it sorted. It does feel like your body's pulling something out of the bag for a high-stress situation. But, yeah, it definitely works. I don't think it's sustainable like that. I think your body works to 110% for a while and then has to seize up a day or so afterwards but I think we are hard wired to hold something back for challenging periods and we can run on endorphins for a while when we need it.
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Post by magicnick1990 on Nov 16, 2009 9:14:10 GMT
Yes I see what you're saying but I know for a fact my output is improved as... Well, normally I can't focus enough to get hardly anything done.
I build / maintain websites of my own as well as... Well, have just started a web design business. Have had about six clients so far.
Anyway, when I've had no sleep though, like... One day I had no sleep, I sat there from start to finish and completed a site for a guy. This would normally take me days, non-stop distraction, procrastination, laziness etc.
But I get a hyper-drive of energy from lack of sleep and I know it's not imagined as I've done things like started to write for my book and I look at what I've written the next day and even reading it... My points and grammar seem more precise and I can tell as I'm writing it. It feels a lot better.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2009 9:38:57 GMT
Fair play! Yeah, website building is the exact kind of thing I would seriously struggle with. I would never get it done.
Yeah, it does sound like an objective improvement then. Interesting.
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