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Post by probioticgirl on Sept 22, 2014 13:01:41 GMT
I've been on strattera now for about 3 or 4 months. It initially helped with my on going fatigue symptoms beautifully. Sadly, the honeymoon period seems to be over now and the crashing tiredness has come back. I've been doing a bit of Internet searching, and apparently there is a well known link between adhd and chronic fatigue syndrome. This is no normal tiredness, it is like jet lag or like I've done two night shifts. I can't even focus my eye sight.
Do many people here feel chronically fatigued or know much about the link with adhd? I'm still a newbie to all this.
Zzzzzzzzz.........
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Post by DKL - darkknightslover on Sept 22, 2014 15:01:47 GMT
I have a personal (uninvestigated) theory that CFS is actually a kind of ADD when the stress is getting you down. I only came across this idea when talking to a CFS sufferer - a nurse - and I was telling her about my adhd. Turns out her sibling is diagnosed ADHD. I only found out more about CFS and think I would tick enough of the boxes to want a diagnosis, if it weren't for the fact that I'd already put them down to how my body reacts to chronic (long term) stress and depression/anxiety.
I would highly recommend mindfulness meditation for CFS and adhd! I am currently following an 8 week course that an audio book from Audible called "Mindfulness for Health" guides you through. There is also a mindfulness 8 week course for frantic thoughts/frantic world or something by the same people which I'm going to try.
There is a hell of a lot of scientific evidence backing up how effective mindfulness is for the reduction of pain and depression etc for an exceedingly wide range of conditions - including CFS/ME, IBS, depression, cancer, ADHD, chronic neuropathic pain, orthopaedic pain etc. Etc. Etc.
Sent from my LT30p using proboards
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Post by blaze on Sept 22, 2014 15:10:54 GMT
Yes, theres a high cross over between adhd and cfs.
I have hypermobile joint syndrom and (suspected) cfs. The rhymetologist i saw (whose also leading pain clinic.consultant) said that its suspevted that the route causes of cfs etc are nuerological jst like hypermobile joint.syndrom is because its caused by the brain not telling the body how to use or make collegen which is why it has high cross over w adhd etc because they are all basicly jst a nuerological muck up.
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Post by probioticgirl on Sept 22, 2014 17:02:13 GMT
I have hypermobile elbows! Managed to get tennis elbow in one, so it isn't as mobile now as it used to be cos the tendon is a bit scarred now, but the left one still twists out enough to gross people out. Oh, and the left one stuck out enough to get me a nasty archery injury this summer :/ I can also touch my palms easily on the floor when I touch my toes, so think I may have a bit of hypermobility there, too. I also have sacroiliac joint syndrome...which might be loose ligaments??? I have IBS, too! healthunlocked.com/theibsnetwork/posts/638391/ibs-and-hypermobility-syndromeHow interesting this all is. I have been moaning about tiredness to my gp for around 24 years now....and I queried CFS with her 2 years ago, but ended up with ADHD instead.
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Post by blaze on Sept 22, 2014 17:18:42 GMT
Having hypermobile joints and having hypermobile joint syndrom are different, lots of people have sm hypermobile joints which may give sm degree of problems, but hypermobjle joint sydrom is caused by the body being unable to uptake or make collegen, it means not having enough.collegen in.joint tissues, viens, eyes, internal organs, skin etc etc. Its a disability as opposed to a few symptoms. i think its hypermobility.org that covers all the hypermovlbile syndroms (which are now considered to be a sliding scale of the same thing) and connect rhumetology symptoms, if you feel you have enough symptoms and high enough beighton (sp) score then ask for referal to rhumetology.
One of the first inducators of developmental disorders and one of the first indicators of hmjs is never crawling as a baby. Its no wounder they are linked if missing the same developmental milestone is an indicator of both.
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Post by probioticgirl on Sept 22, 2014 17:23:10 GMT
I think I'm only hyper mobile in a few areas, defo not all. My fingers aren't very flexi at all.
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Post by blaze on Sept 22, 2014 17:32:07 GMT
You dont need everysingle joint to.be hypermobile to have hypermobile joint syndrom, but you need most i think combined with.several other symptoms like pain, easy bruising and hemoraging, disclocations or partial dislocations (joint sublaxing) and a bunch of.other.ones (ibs might be included)
I have mildly hypermobile elbows and knees and wrists, so mild they wdnt give me marks on the score thing, but all my other joints are excessively hypermobile. The pain is a bitch and.the.fatigue has had me sleeping 20 hrs a day before.
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Post by danherts on Sept 22, 2014 19:13:12 GMT
I definately fall into the chronic fatigue category and life at the moment is a choice between having energy or a memory as Elvanse and Concerta treat each of these respectively but can't be combined.
The fact that there are so many seemingly illogical links between chronic disorders seems to suggest to me that the boffins are missing something obvious.
There are a few explanations I've come across, such as celiacs disease and gluten acting on the brain as an opiate, also if you're willing to battle through iffy science and rebuttals sponsored by huge corporate interests the argument around Glyphosate would make sense as an explanation.
I've been meaning to go gluten free or organic for ages to test these theories but never seem to have the energy when I get to the shop.
How has Stattera been working for you otherwise?
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Post by blaze on Sept 23, 2014 5:53:43 GMT
Iv done gluten, wheat, dairy, soya, goats/sheep milk products, refined sugar, yeast, caffine and alcohol free for along time and it.didnt help at all with any symptoms. My girls had alot of bf problems so i pretty much did a ted diet without the meat because i wont eat that anyways, for six + mths til we figured out exact what urritated their sr. So this definately didnt help me any, but i have two.adult dx of severe adhd now, plus severe hypermobile joint syndrom and moderate to severe chronic pain dx, cfs and possible pots are suspected by rhumetologist but more dx wdnt change the treatment so i dont see the point, but maybe for people who only have mild symptoms gluten etc free might help perhaps.
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Post by contrarymary on Sept 23, 2014 7:15:46 GMT
There are a few explanations I've come across, such as celiacs disease and gluten acting on the brain as an opiate.... really interesting discussion. yes to the chronic fatigue - for years. post-viral onset. plus a chronic pain disorder as well as neuro stuff. and most recently the adhd diagnosis. finding ways of working with adhd symptoms has helped me to get my head around pacing for the first time EVER. but anyway, the opiate thing... i've been avoiding much processed food for years, and cut out most white flour and sugar. for nearly a year i've been cutting down carbs to try and improve my energy, focus, concentration, sleep etc. (which is working btw) i've had v little wheat or indeed gluten for nearly a year, then twice in the last week i've had wheat - in a cheese sauce last thursday and then in a cake yesterday. both times i had a real sense of uber relaxation, lower pain levels, total chill within a few minutes, and yesterday - even tho i had my daily cup of coffee with my cake - i felt so chilled it was as tho i had been drugged. like a really good post-meditation brain i'd be really interested if anyone has any mainstream science/research links to a link between adhd and chronic fatigue...
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Post by probioticgirl on Sept 23, 2014 11:18:02 GMT
I have tried gluten free for short periods - never noticed cognition improvement or chill out, but notice my belly bloats less, which is always nice. I'm 2 months into taking Vegepa fish oils at present. Research suggests help with concentration/ADHD after around 3 months so worth a go. Strattera, although helpful with my stress, has not helped thus far with my focus/memory/attention/organisation issues. Infact, since my anxiety is decreased, I feel my focus/memory/attention/organisation issues are actually worse as the driving force (ie anxiety) has gone that perhaps helped me perform a bit - albeit in a bad way. Cake and eat it?
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Post by blaze on Sept 23, 2014 11:20:12 GMT
As far as i know theres no large scale research currently, but if you google theres certainly links to scholarly articles and small.scale research that suggests theres a link and more research needed.
i have met (jst as an adult) three psychs (one specialist adhd service) two consultant rhumetologists, two specilst rhumetology physios, regular ots, pain clinic ots, pain clinic conultants and two oesteopath who have all said theres a v v high cross over between neurodevelopmental disorders and chronic fatigue/hypermobilty/chronic pain conditions. i find whenever i see anyone new and they take medical history the immediately start nodding and accept i have whatever it is im being refered for jst by listening to my past dx. The last pain clinic consultant who i also saw in rhumetology said theres believed to be a basic neurological muck up at the centre of all these types of conditions.
One of the articles on the main site here looks at adhd and pain conditions i believe. I know the hypermobility forums have an extrodanarily high number of us also dx w developmental disorders, when dandas forums were up and running again most of us also had hypermobile or fatigue problems going on, and i know from friends whose kids are dx either hypermobile or adhd that theres a high cross over on the forums and support groups they use, global developmental delay disorder is the term they talk about, which isnt necessaily appropriate re adults but generaly hypermobile problems have to be extreemly severe to warant a dx in.childhood as children naturaly hypermobile joints. Im excessively hypermobile and yet walked etc so.didnt get dx til i was 25 and cripled in pain.
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Post by DKL - darkknightslover on Sept 23, 2014 16:55:00 GMT
I have issues with my sacroiliac joints too!!! I was worried I might have rheumatic issues but my symptoms don't match up.
A bit sceptical about gluten acting like an opioid, but I think it was meant as an analogy. Will look more into this if I remember. I personally have found that making my own bread and switching to spelt flour in my bread machine reduces my waist measurement from the bloating more than I realised!! Milk also seems to do it. I now use oat milk which also serves to increase my fibre intake.
I have found I need to make sure I drink enough fluids - it affects my sluggish thinking in the afternoon and my sleep quality as well (I have recently been reminded of this after having a hard time with sleep when I first started on dexamphetamine sulfate).
Peppermint tea, clippers sleep easy tea and high dose omega oils are the only "natural remedies" I use. I'm also on iron supplements at the moment after visiting the neurologist about my restless legs. Although one iron measurement was within normal limits, another one wasn't, which isn't common. However it sounds like many of our bodies don't seem to behave normally anyway!!!
Sent from my LT30p using proboards
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Post by fuzzywuzzy on Sept 23, 2014 18:59:10 GMT
The fact that there are so many seemingly illogical links between chronic disorders seems to suggest to me that the boffins are missing something obvious. Definitely agree with this!
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Post by danherts on Sept 23, 2014 22:27:48 GMT
A bit sceptical about gluten acting like an opioid, but I think it was meant as an analogy. Will look more into this if I remember. I didn't mean it as an analogy, opiods are created during the digestion of Gluten. Google 'Gluten Exorphins'. I think the bone of contention is whether a 'leaky gut' associated with various neurological conditions mean these reach the brain.
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Post by probioticgirl on Sept 24, 2014 7:27:59 GMT
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Post by shapes on Sept 24, 2014 13:32:50 GMT
I had a CFS diagnosis before ADHD. Only way to control it is to get yourself as healthy as possible. Do plenty of exercise, keep yourself a healthy weight. Eat relatively healthily.
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Post by danherts on Sept 24, 2014 23:20:09 GMT
i'd be really interested if anyone has any mainstream science/research links to a link between adhd and chronic fatigue... I haven't seen any direct mainstream research into this directly, but I like to kind of stitch the pieces together. If you believe that autism has any connection with ADHD or maybe even that there is some connection between all neurological disorders, there is recent research on digestion issues associated with autism. One of these studies found that the makeup of gut flora was significantly different between autism sufferers and controls, studies in mice show that gut flora make up can influence behaviour and there is at least one study that links CFS to gut flora and resultant gut inflammation as well as seperately neuro-inflammation, the inflammation thing tying in nicely with the eczema symptoms that seem to go hand in hand with the above. Although widespread use of the herbicide glyphosate (roundup) is posited not to be dangerous to people, it is to bacteria, and the theory goes that once these bacteria are destroyed it leaves you unable to detoxify chemicals. The argument against this is that there is clearly a genetic basis to autism, and the counter argument should be that research shows there is a genetic difference in autism relating to digestive enzymes which would mean the reaction to glyphosate would be different. Any out there seemingly anti-corporate research like that on glyphosate seems to just be assumed to be a sort of consipiracy theory, but the theories came from MIT, not David Icke's bedroom. This isn't something I necessarily believe, as a layman and with all this research being in its infancy I'm at the mercy of what research other people decide to do and when the issue is so political like this it is very messy, but I believe it'll be the piecing together of the too specialised research that is going on at the moment that'll create some great insight once these people start talking to each other. Sorry no sources, I can never find anything again but it's all out there.
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Post by verve on Sept 24, 2014 23:39:19 GMT
I came to the conclusion that sugar is the root of all evil/inflammation, especially if you look in the mirror and you have blue eyes with a subtle yellow fleck.
Elated after this discovery, I had a banana, an apple and a coffee with three sugars to celebrate.
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Post by probioticgirl on Sept 25, 2014 19:36:26 GMT
Verve LOL
I have a feeling we could all do with less processed sugar and less wheat/gluten products, even if we're NT. A paleo diet appeals as a trial, but I am unlikely to ever get round to it.
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Post by bigboyted on Sept 25, 2014 23:06:36 GMT
Verve LOL I have a feeling we could all do with less processed sugar and less wheat/gluten products, even if we're NT. A paleo diet appeals as a trial, but I am unlikely to ever get round to it. I've had problems with fatigue ever since I started taking prozac for the winter 20 years ago and the last couple of years have been particularly bad . In May I was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes and although my GP suggests the recent increased fatigue had nothing to with diabetes because my blood sugar was barely in the diabetic range I've been reading studies that suggest for people with recurrent depression and bipolar even pre diabetic levels of insulin resistance ( the precursor to diabetes , thought to cause metabolic syndrome ( obesity , sleep apnea hypertension and diabetes )) can affect functioning .Although research is at an early stage it maybe that although for the physical complications of diabetes high blood sugar is the main problem ( cardiovascular problems , blindness , infection and even amputation of limbs ) as far as the brain is concerned insulin resistance is just as important or even more so . Problems with glucose metabolism has something to do with alzheimers , at post mortem their brain cells are insulin resistant even if the rest of the cells of the body aren't . To convert blood glucose to the energy the bodies cells need to function insulin is required to "push " the glucose across cells membrane however some people require increasing amounts of insulin to get the required amount of glucose into cells as they put on weight especially as fat builds up around the belly , this is insulin resistance . Not everyone who is insulin resistance goes on to develop diabetes probably not even the majority and their bodies happily go on producing sufficient insulin for the rest of their lives but diabetics find that the cells in the pancreas that make insulin decline in numbers and they produce too little or in some subtypes no insulin at all and end up having to inject insulin . According to the diabetic nurse at the education day I attended in July diabetics who take insulin often find that the fatigue that they been affected by as a consequence of diabetes disappears or lessens significantly once they start injecting diabetes . As to whether its because the muscle cells are able to receive sufficient glucose to operate or something to do with brain cells functioning poorly because of lack of glucose I have no idea. In my own case the most energetic I have been in a long while was when I combined the antidepressant reboxetine with the supplement phenylalanine which is an amino acid , precursor to the neurotransmitters dopamine and noradrenaline as well as the thyroid hormone thyroxine . It is also as I was surprised to learn yesterday a pretty good stimulator of insulin from the pancreas and several diabetic medications are described as phenylalanine analogues . I am beginning to wonder if just as some people find that to make antidepressants work properly they have to augment with thyroid medication perhaps phenylalanine had a comparable effect for me when combined with reboxetine because of its effect on glucose metabolism, most likely in the brain . Whats more if it is the case for me then for a significant subpopulation of those with a mood disorder who are treatment resistant or only partially responsive to medication it maybe because of glucose metabolism problems . What is true that in recents years some psychiatrists have started have started to talk about bipolar being a multisystemic illness precisely because of the association with metabolic syndrome and it leading to increased mortality of mood disorders . At around 10 years much the same as diabetes alone . For those with fatigue and fibro problems you could do worse than check out Georgia Ede's blog , in her early forties she had a problem with fatigue and fibro , changed her diet I assume to a low carb one and both problems improved . Unlike a lot of shrinks she doesn't have any mental health problems but in her family there is obesity, hypertension and interestingly ADHD , Good luck Cheers Eddy
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Post by verve on Sept 26, 2014 0:11:37 GMT
Verve LOL I have a feeling we could all do with less processed sugar and less wheat/gluten products, even if we're NT. A paleo diet appeals as a trial, but I am unlikely to ever get round to it. A lotta truth in jest! There is only one diet that changes the way the body feeds the brain and that is to remove all carbs from your daily diet whilst chowing down on fat and protein. Some advise a high carb meal every 7 days so things don't get rusty. Don't attempt this diet unless you have a trusty NT to manage the entire thing for you. Seriously. I've 'tried them all' too and this is the only one which made me sit up and 'wow' after 2-3 weeks. I'm not particularly self-aware so it takes fairly significant changes for me to notice stuff. There's been talk of leaky gut in this thread but this isn't something I can relate to but we're all different. I believe if anything, I suffer the opposite; poor absorption. I've struggled with carb cravings since forever and whilst not being fat, have always carried a bit of excess! I know of a few people who are cake-straight-to-the-hips types like me. If you've always been naturally lean and been able to eat anything (off meds) this post is probably of little use to you. My zero carb diet observations: Lethargy, extreme cravings and poor concentration initially followed by a complete recovery, a reduction in waist size, significantly more energy. I have never been a morning person but for the first time in my life when my eyes opened I was ready to get up. I had to come off it after a while because I started making up my own rules and made myself ill. All that aside, some sources suggest there is a similarity between glucose and vitamin c when it's floating around in your blood. White blood cells allegedly induce large amounts of vitamin c into themselves but the tool they use to do this will suck up glucose before vitamin c. Given my penchant for patisseries, none of this sounds great! Which leads me on to wonder why. Cravings address a need, it is often said. A need for more glucose in the brain? If it's not getting there, why not? Who cares because on a ketogenic diet, ketones primarily feed the brain by crossing a slightly different bridge over the blood-brain barrier. Glucose is still conjured up occasionally (gluconeogenesis) but to a much lesser extent. This isn't just google blurb because I've felt the difference, personally. Pretty sure there are clinical studies highlighting the marked positive effects ketosis has on neurological and neurodegenerative disease. s) For some of us, at least, sugar is indeed the root of all evil!
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Post by blaze on Sept 26, 2014 6:15:48 GMT
While no gluten etc ted diet did nothing for my adhd and fatigue the no carb one i followed at a teen made me v ill, and as i am not over weight and dont store fat around my middle i dont identify w any of that either.
When did everyones fatigue start? I basicly didnt ever sleep as a child until i hit pueberty (v young, i was only 9) and have never felt anything but extreeme exhaustion ever since, i know i had v bad glandular fever and post viral fatigue around a yr after this which coincided w me going off ritilin until i was in uni i think and my anemia kicking in badly for a few yrs. However, even once as an adult anemia was well treated/managed w healthy diet and natural supplements (low caffine, tannins and dairy in my diet so as not to block absorbtion), and i was back on adhd med, in physio for my hypermobility, sleeping the best i ever have, and in gd health otherwise iv still been rediculously fatigued physicaly and emotionaly. I think for me my brain having to manage severe adhd and my body having to deal w severe hypermobility and moderate chronic pain fatigue is inevitable. So while the other trains of thought are interesting i wounder if people may have different reasons behind cfs symptoms.
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Post by blaze on Sept 26, 2014 6:26:50 GMT
Slightly confused by one thing, isnt the ameno acid you mention a type of artifical.sweetner? And theres plenty written about how sweetners have a worse effect on blood sugar that sugar itself and theres plenty about how they are linked to cancer, set off ibs and are especialy bad for adhd.brains. uote author=" bigboyted" source="/post/83836/thread" timestamp="1411686396"] Verve LOL I have a feeling we could all do with less processed sugar and less wheat/gluten products, even if we're NT. A paleo diet appeals as a trial, but I am unlikely to ever get round to it. I've had problems with fatigue ever since I started taking prozac for the winter 20 years ago and the last couple of years have been particularly bad . In May I was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes and although my GP suggests the recent increased fatigue had nothing to with diabetes because my blood sugar was barely in the diabetic range I've been reading studies that suggest for people with recurrent depression and bipolar even pre diabetic levels of insulin resistance ( the precursor to diabetes , thought to cause metabolic syndrome ( obesity , sleep apnea hypertension and diabetes )) can affect functioning .Although research is at an early stage it maybe that although for the physical complications of diabetes high blood sugar is the main problem ( cardiovascular problems , blindness , infection and even amputation of limbs ) as far as the brain is concerned insulin resistance is just as important or even more so . Problems with glucose metabolism has something to do with alzheimers , at post mortem their brain cells are insulin resistant even if the rest of the cells of the body aren't . To convert blood glucose to the energy the bodies cells need to function insulin is required to "push " the glucose across cells membrane however some people require increasing amounts of insulin to get the required amount of glucose into cells as they put on weight especially as fat builds up around the belly , this is insulin resistance . Not everyone who is insulin resistance goes on to develop diabetes probably not even the majority and their bodies happily go on producing sufficient insulin for the rest of their lives but diabetics find that the cells in the pancreas that make insulin decline in numbers and they produce too little or in some subtypes no insulin at all and end up having to inject insulin . According to the diabetic nurse at the education day I attended in July diabetics who take insulin often find that the fatigue that they been affected by as a consequence of diabetes disappears or lessens significantly once they start injecting diabetes . As to whether its because the muscle cells are able to receive sufficient glucose to operate or something to do with brain cells functioning poorly because of lack of glucose I have no idea. In my own case the most energetic I have been in a long while was when I combined the antidepressant reboxetine with the supplement phenylalanine which is an amino acid , precursor to the neurotransmitters dopamine and noradrenaline as well as the thyroid hormone thyroxine . It is also as I was surprised to learn yesterday a pretty good stimulator of insulin from the pancreas and several diabetic medications are described as phenylalanine analogues . I am beginning to wonder if just as some people find that to make antidepressants work properly they have to augment with thyroid medication perhaps phenylalanine had a comparable effect for me when combined with reboxetine because of its effect on glucose metabolism, most likely in the brain . Whats more if it is the case for me then for a significant subpopulation of those with a mood disorder who are treatment resistant or only partially responsive to medication it maybe because of glucose metabolism problems . What is true that in recents years some psychiatrists have started have started to talk about bipolar being a multisystemic illness precisely because of the association with metabolic syndrome and it leading to increased mortality of mood disorders . At around 10 years much the same as diabetes alone . For those with fatigue and fibro problems you could do worse than check out Georgia Ede's blog , in her early forties she had a problem with fatigue and fibro , changed her diet I assume to a low carb one and both problems improved . Unlike a lot of shrinks she doesn't have any mental health problems but in her family there is obesity, hypertension and interestingly ADHD , Good luck Cheers Eddy [/quote]
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Post by cheekybuddha on Sept 26, 2014 7:24:06 GMT
This is all very surprising! I have had problems with chronic fatigue, feeling I'll and sick, aching joints, people don't believe I have ADHD (I've given up mentioning it now!) as I feel more tired than anything and don't rush around like a Duracell bunny.
I get very tense back muscle and have had sacroiliac joint probelms too!
I never connected any of this with ADHD ..well I have to go on the school run soon but will read better later
Very interesting great thread!
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surprised
Member's not posted much yet
Yes, a custom title. The only one.
custom title?
Posts: 47
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Post by surprised on Sept 27, 2014 9:50:15 GMT
Very interesting. I suffer from hypermobilty too. (8 out of 9 on beighton test). But i read that the chronic tiredness comes from how hard our muscles work to compensate for the lack of support. I also have terrible headaches and migraines with almost constant neck pain. I do think it would have been easier to have been shot at birth!!!
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Post by probioticgirl on Oct 6, 2014 8:15:11 GMT
Ugh, 3 solid days of utter fatigue now.....I get mild nausea with it and am having heart palpitations for the last 10 or so days. It's 9.15am and I want my bed..............
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cloud9
Member's not posted much yet
Posts: 17
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Post by cloud9 on Oct 19, 2014 7:23:19 GMT
I am heartily re assured by the massive response you had to your initial post! As a newly diagnosed adder and being "ahem ?" slightly older I have been through countless diagnosis over the years, convinced I had hypothyroid, suffer aches and pains EVERYWHERE! I have hyper mobile joints too. I have hideous insomnia and excessive daytime tiredness.Been a supplement nut, had hypnosis, counselling and spent a small fortune, been on antidepressants and a diagnosis of fybromyalgia oh and fibroids. But the overriding stimulus and thing that bothers me is fatigue!!!!!!!! I've considered myself a hypochondriac but I try to keep my ailments between me and my ever patient gp. And I don't court sympathy. I also pushed out three babies with a couple of paracetomol so I'm not a complete wuss! I have a good period then I'll "crash" and this has been described as a fibro flare up. But I'm drained and foggy and usually pick up a mild virus to boot and have to take a couple of weeks off. It happens about 3 times a year, change of season oddly? I hate having chronic illness, I hate the way some people think it's a choice somehow and that I should get on with it. I would love to wake up every morning confident that I am going to get through the day.... I want to be dynamic and efficient and productive. Roll on tomorrow and the meds that may be a step toward this..... Sorry this has turned into a therapeutic nonsensical rant. ? xxx
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cloud9
Member's not posted much yet
Posts: 17
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Post by cloud9 on Oct 19, 2014 7:30:01 GMT
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Post by probioticgirl on Oct 19, 2014 21:16:34 GMT
Thanks for that link. Listening now and subscribed to those podcasts.
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