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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2015 14:42:17 GMT
Infancy stuff over at NEBA, but with the onslaught against subjective psyche ADHD dxing, I can only see a bigger move towards biological testing and brain-mapping www.nebahealth.net/wheretostart.html
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neilc
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Post by neilc on Jan 15, 2015 12:41:43 GMT
I would love to take a hard-science based test, the tests I was was given (by the NHS's leading consultants) seemed to be dyslexia test from the 80's and some subjective chats :-(
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2015 15:32:23 GMT
I would love to take a hard-science based test, the tests I was was given (by the NHS's leading consultants) seemed to be dyslexia test from the 80's and some subjective chats :-( Yes it can be like that can't it. I suspect we're 10-15 years, governments and research funding willing, to get hard coded test for many mental health disorders and conditions. We're right at the cusp of a new age in neurology and brain mapping. Even if those on here young enough to realise biological testing in the future, have doubts and misgivings about the path they are taking, and who subsequently get told they don't have what we currently refer to as ADHD, might benefit from really eye-opening alternative diagnoses.
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Post by neuroscience223 on Jan 22, 2015 18:30:39 GMT
I would like a hard-science test but it won't happen for a while, despite it sorely being needed to finally prove to others the suffering that ADHD can induce, and prove that ADHD is not simply a label and an excuse used on a exuberant or boisterous child or lazy adult. Here's why:
1: Scans are weak, and only show abnormalities in some patients, like 20% for SPECT scans apparently, and even then, for those 20%, they don't all have the same neurological sign. Because as I'm going to argue, ADHD patients are suffering from different, not the same disorders, scans pick up different signs in different patients. In short, each ADHD patient or case is pretty unique. They are likely not the same condition. Furthermore, some patients have an abnormal EEG but I know that others have a completely normal EEG, which goes to show the extent to which ADHD is not one but many different conditions.
2: Although I've become somewhat attached and proud of my label and hate to say it, ADHD likely is a collection of many diseases and although we portray it as one disease and a single condition, it is likely each patient is suffering from a different condition. It is a syndrome meaning its a set of symptoms that have a multitude of causes. So, really, ADHD is like a catch-all diagnosis atm, like most other mental health diagnoses but its the best that we've got. It is likely that different patients have completely different causes behind their symptoms. Probably different biological and psychological factors but I'm thinking that ADHD is especially biological given the genetic evidence behind it. Some patients may have an abnormality in their pre-frontal cortex, while others, the striatum or basal ganglia. Some patients may have a problem with the gene for the dopamine transporter while other patients don't have it, but have a problem with their glutamate gene. In short, different ADHD patients as they are diagnosed now, are in fact suffering from different, likely genetic conditions. It is also likely that these different conditions have other symptoms attached to them besides inattention and hyperactivity, which is why some ADHD patients have co-morbid epilepsy, depression, anxiety, etc. It is likely that patients that have a certain combination of co-morbid conditions, don't have different conditions, but in fact, have one condition or underlying problem with brain causing a broad range of symptoms.
3: Cost and usefulness: Although they may be able to pick up something with regards to brain structure or brain activity, MRI and FMRI scans are rarely used due to the fact that the chance of them picking up something is rather low(20% for SPECT). It's also not clear what to look for because many patients that have something that an MRI scan can pick up have different signs or abnormalities in their brain. Finally, the cost is prohibitive at £6000-£8000 for an FMRI and £2000 pounds for an MRI. So as NICE would say, these scans are not "cost-effective", and there is absolutely no point in using it as the chance of finding something is small, and if you do, it could be anything, so you will likely waste a huge proportion of money.
Anyway done, but yeah, we need a biological test, even though I doubt it will happen soon.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 21:42:18 GMT
Anyway done, but yeah, we need a biological test, even though I doubt it will happen soon. I think it will happen sooner than we think. I'm more negative about institutional opposition than the exponential advancement in technology. I think governments are scared stiff of biological tests that can compartmentalise people into expressions of biological fact they have no control over. It'll do their <in Cameron accent> "there are good people and there are bad people" narrative no good at all Wrt. uniqueness. Totally agree with you. I suspect that ADHD will be subdivided in further categories and reassignments. ADHD itself might even disappear as a diagnosis. You just have to take migraines with aura. I got one yesterday that laid me low and had to take the fay off today to recover. I was unable to speak, coordinate and visualize people's faces. Latest research is leaning towards white matter of the brain being damaged during these episodes. If conclusively proven as fact, then I suspect such a condition will be reassigned and won't even be referred to as a migraine in the near future. That's spot on for me and almost exactly how I see ADHD and echoes somewhat with what I say above
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Post by contrarymary on Jan 22, 2015 22:21:48 GMT
i wonder if it might be possible for you to write in smaller paragraphs. i notice that you are writing about interesting subjects and i would like to be able to read what you have to say but unfortunately i simply can't ( many people with adhd struggle to read long paragraphs because they appear like a wall of text, even tho we write long paragraphs ourselves)
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Post by neuroscience223 on Jan 22, 2015 22:58:01 GMT
Hehe, no worries, I'll cut down on the writing.
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Post by neuroscience223 on Jan 23, 2015 4:29:02 GMT
There would definitely be opposition from some when we begin to basically compartmentalise humans, but I think that governments would if, in anything, be in favour of compartmentalisation. Politicians and by extensions governments like to have certainty, in the sense that, for the purpose of something like diagnosis, it is favourable to a government to have a test that says yes or no, rather than a series of interviews which can be slightly subjective, and lead to possible overdiagnosis and waste of public coffers. A biological cause would also get rid of the subjective wishy washy psychological explanations which to be honest, have a place, but don't provide a good level of certainty or hard evidence, and thus to a government not as good as a potential biological test. Treatment could be targeted to the biological issue which would mean that a government would be able to spend less on medicines that may not work, or on talking therapies which don't offer the certainty. NIMH in the US bases all its ideas and theories around biology, and its part of the US government. It's also the largest mental health research in the world.
Two massive projects called the B.R.A.I.N initiative and the Human Brain Project are being funded by the US government and EU Commission. Its working from the bottom to the top, analysing each neuron, before working up into circuits, inter-connected circuits, and eventually network. We suspect some areas of the brain are involved in ADHD for example, the pre-frontal cortex.
But the pre-frontal cortex is in itself a massive web of billions of inter-connected neurons and doesn't just deal with attention but deals with a ton of different things. Saying the pre-frontal cortex deals with attention is not incorrect, but is like saying that blood is pumped around the body from an area between the head and stomach, but not knowing exactly what pumps blood around the body.
It's not very helpful or specific, and that is what in my opinion, has held back brain research, and in turn ADHD research and a biological test. Can't be blamed though considering that the heart has only 10 components and the brain has a massively large ton of components. This government funding will hopefully provide the boost needed for brain research which will benefit not just ADHD but others too.
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Post by contrarymary on Jan 23, 2015 16:14:40 GMT
There would definitely be opposition from some when we begin to basically compartmentalise humans, but I think that governments would if, in anything, be in favour of compartmentalisation. Politicians and by extensions governments like to have certainty, in the sense that, for the purpose of something like diagnosis, it is favourable to a government to have a test that says yes or no, rather than a series of interviews which can be slightly subjective, and lead to possible overdiagnosis and waste of public coffers. A biological cause would also get rid of the subjective wishy washy psychological explanations which to be honest, have a place, but don't provide a good level of certainty or hard evidence, and thus to a government not as good as a potential biological test. Treatment could be targeted to the biological issue which would mean that a government would be able to spend less on medicines that may not work, or on talking therapies which don't offer the certainty. NIMH in the US bases all its ideas and theories around biology, and its part of the US government. It's also the largest mental health research in the world. Two massive projects called the B.R.A.I.N initiative and the Human Brain Project are being funded by the US government and EU Commission. Its working from the bottom to the top, analysing each neuron, before working up into circuits, inter-connected circuits, and eventually network. We suspect some areas of the brain are involved in ADHD for example, the pre-frontal cortex. But the pre-frontal cortex is in itself a massive web of billions of inter-connected neurons and doesn't just deal with attention but deals with a ton of different things. Saying the pre-frontal cortex deals with attention is not incorrect, but is like saying that blood is pumped around the body from an area between the head and stomach, but not knowing exactly what pumps blood around the body. It's not very helpful or specific, and that is what in my opinion, has held back brain research, and in turn ADHD research and a biological test. Can't be blamed though considering that the heart has only 10 components and the brain has a massively large ton of components. This government funding will hopefully provide the boost needed for brain research which will benefit not just ADHD but others too. thnk you v much for understnding. and here is me demonstrting wht might work. (despite my sticking letters - sorry)
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Post by astraka on Jan 23, 2015 16:31:28 GMT
That's really interesting stuff. I've been talking to a lot of people lately who firmly believe that all conditions relating to the mind are trauma related...
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