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Post by jamiehirst on Feb 16, 2016 16:08:50 GMT
I am not sure if this is an ADHD specific issue or not, and as I am not diagnosed I may well not have ADHD (the few health professionals I have seen are confident I do though) but I seem to struggle so much with confidence and self-belief when it comes to work especially a large body of work.
I am attempting to finish a 10,000 word dissertation, the very last assignment for my history degree and despite a whole years extension, I still have only 3000-4000 words done (admittedly I only really started working on it since September after choosing a new topic in June) and despite having until early may to do it I just feel utterly hopeless about it which cripples my ability to work.
I am capable and in fact did almost all my assignments for my degree in one or two days as I just ran out of time procrastinating but a dissertation is too big for me to do that and I think I have become so anxious as I need at least 60% to get my 2:1 that I am really paralysed with stress and procrastinate harder becoming distracted very fast even for me.
Are there any strategies people have used to help to counter issues like this? I was hoping medication would help me but there is almost no chance of getting it before my deadline.
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Post by clubby on Feb 16, 2016 22:03:36 GMT
For sure, this is an ADHD issue which I know very well.
I usually cope by hyperfocussing when my subconscious tells me its time to get the skates on.
I am not in control of when the subconscious kicks in and I have to have a great deal of faith that it will happen.
I don't want to live a cycle of fear and hyperfocus
Right now I am treating my procrastinations as phobias because, in some ways, I think that's what they are.
My fears of getting on with the job are not real, I know that but part of my brain won't accept it.
The courage required to overcome a phobia is immense, but it is worth it.
Everyday try to be super-courageous and do a tiny bit of your dissertation.
If you can get past the horror of starting, the phobia will ease as the petrified part of your brain realises you can cope.
Its a matter of mind control.,
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Post by contrarymary on Feb 16, 2016 22:22:54 GMT
Kathymel this makes me think of your situation i wonder if you may have wisdom of recent experience to share
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bonji
Member's not posted much yet
Posts: 21
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Post by bonji on Feb 17, 2016 1:21:16 GMT
Jamiehirst, I hope you can find the strength to carry on. if you can finish it maybe there is hope for me too . I have no real advise to give as you have got further than I could dream of at this point in time. I will offer my support and props to how well you have done so far. you will do it. just chip away day after day.
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Post by jamiehirst on Feb 17, 2016 2:36:21 GMT
Thanks guys for the advice and support I think my current plan is to do at least 150-200 words a day which should mean I finish with time to spare, I am thinking maybe I should finish one chapter and send it to my tutor get feedback and hopefully he won't crap all over it and give me some confidence. I guess I need to trick myself into feeling confident
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Post by annie on Feb 17, 2016 12:13:39 GMT
Hi there
Sadly, lack of confidence and poor self esteem frequently go alongside undx ADHD. However, do congratulate yourself on getting this far with your degree - that really is some achievement!!
I think sometimes the notion of having to write such a lengthy piece of work can be quite paralysing - maybe it needs to be broken down into "bite size" chunks. Quite a few students have mentioned using mind maps as a way of getting your thoughts down on paper. If you google it, I'm sure you will find some useful links.
I know this sounds easy and may be something you've already done but, putting a structure to your dissertation could be a starting point - beginning, middle and end. Rather than send your tutor the 1st chapter it might be more helpful if you could send him an outline as to how you propose to address this dissertation. You could then ask him/her to give you feedback on the structure and whether or not it fulfills his expectations of a "good dissertation"
I know you're still waiting for your assessment and goodness knows how long that will take. However, you have had some recent serious mental health difficulties and I would have thought you were entitled to request some support from the Learning Support Unit at your university. Is this something you've tried?
Anyway, whatever you do, good luck with it!
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Post by Kathymel on Feb 17, 2016 12:32:53 GMT
Hi there.
I'm doing my dissertation at the moment, too.
I had two extra years in which to make life easier for myself, but did nothing and didn't actually start it (apart from writing the proposal last Sep) until the beginning of Feb, 2 1/2 weeks ago. Despite that I have caught up and am doing quite well.
The secret is deadlines. I explained about the ADHD problems to my tutor and said I needed more and stricter deadlines. He came back with a deadline for every week from Feb 5 to April 15. It's made a world of difference. I have to show him an outline, followed by a draft, followed by the revised item for every chapter. Each chapter is spaced out over a few weeks and interwoven with deadlines for other chapters to allow for some distance between revisions to get perspective.
I didn't get my DSA form in until a few weeks ago, so I've not had any support as yet, but I'm seeing a mentor for the first time next week. Not sure how much good it's going to do, as I'm quite far along with it, now.
Even without a proper diagnosis, if you can tell your tutor you are going through the process, s/he tutor should make adjustments for you.
I imagine you probably have issues with structuring work as well and find it difficult to hold a paragraph in your head to see what it looks like as a whole (or even a long sentence, sometimes), which makes actually being able to stand back and see the diss. as a whole almost impossible. Ask your tutor if someone can support you on this if it's a problem.
You may also have problems with perfectionism, finding yourself unable to move on until a word, sentence or paragraph is perfect, which interrupts flow and wastes time. I find, even writing a rough draft, I waste hours fiddling with tiny details, swapping sentences round and back again, slightly changing the wording, agonising if a paragraph is in the right place. I haven't found the answer to this one, yet.
Hope that helps a little. Off to see my tutor now and late as usual. Please ask if you can think of any way in which I can help. Kathy x
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Post by jamiehirst on Feb 17, 2016 15:41:55 GMT
I really like the idea of setting small deadlines but I think I am pretty afraid of firstly admitting how little work I have done but also that I will fail, I think I need a more solid plan for the disso like I need to read the source more I think.
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Post by Kathymel on Feb 17, 2016 23:18:33 GMT
I really like the idea of setting small deadlines but I think I am pretty afraid of firstly admitting how little work I have done but also that I will fail, I think I need a more solid plan for the disso like I need to read the source more I think. I talked about this to my tutor today. This is roughly what he said: Firtly, your tutor is very, very used to students being way behind the point they are supposed to be at. He guarantees that your tutor will have had students in his office two or three weeks before their deadline, crying because they haven't done anything. Secondly, your tutor is there to help you and wants you to succeed. He can't do that if you don't tell him that you are struggling. Thirdly, your tutor is not going to be cross with you. He will be pleased that you haven't left it until it is too late for him to support you. If you put off telling him until you've done more, you are almost certainly setting yourself up for a bigger fail. If you haven't been able to do it by yourself up to now, why do you think it will change? It is part of the accepted profile of ADHDers that they cannot motivate themselves in the same way as others, but need external motivation like deadlines to help them. Didn't you say you'd done 3,000 - 4,000 words? That's roughly where my deadlines say I should be at.
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Post by jamiehirst on Feb 18, 2016 3:48:05 GMT
I really like the idea of setting small deadlines but I think I am pretty afraid of firstly admitting how little work I have done but also that I will fail, I think I need a more solid plan for the disso like I need to read the source more I think. I talked about this to my tutor today. This is roughly what he said: Firtly, your tutor is very, very used to students being way behind the point they are supposed to be at. He guarantees that your tutor will have had students in his office two or three weeks before their deadline, crying because they haven't done anything. Secondly, your tutor is there to help you and wants you to succeed. He can't do that if you don't tell him that you are struggling. Thirdly, your tutor is not going to be cross with you. He will be pleased that you haven't left it until it is too late for him to support you. If you put off telling him until you've done more, you are almost certainly setting yourself up for a bigger fail. If you haven't been able to do it by yourself up to now, why do you think it will change? It is part of the accepted profile of ADHDers that they cannot motivate themselves in the same way as others, but need external motivation like deadlines to help them. Didn't you say you'd done 3,000 - 4,000 words? That's roughly where my deadlines say I should be at. I guess i just need to swallow my pride and do it, I think I just struggle so much with hating myself and like I want to excuse how crap I am doing with it being ADHD and stuff but I know I could have structured my time soooo much better. And I guess I am at 4,600 words but a lot is notes so like 3500 of words and I feel a lot of it is nonsense.
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Post by Kathymel on Feb 18, 2016 14:27:03 GMT
I guess i just need to swallow my pride and do it, I think I just struggle so much with hating myself and like I want to excuse how crap I am doing with it being ADHD and stuff but I know I could have structured my time soooo much better. And I guess I am at 4,600 words but a lot is notes so like 3500 of words and I feel a lot of it is nonsense. I know exactly how you feel. I still piss myself off on a daily basis and hate it when I mess up. I know it feels like you're having to swallow your pride, but I think it's linked to not really accepting just how disabling ADHD can be. Having this disorder puts you at a real, significant disadvantage to other students. It wouldn't be classed as a disability and have money thrown at it if this wasn't the case. So don't feel like you are less of a person because you can't cope as well as other people. Think of it as having a mental wheelchair in a world with no ramps. One of my personal rules for trying to cope is, "Do it now." I look forward to hearing your tutor's response. When is your deadline, by the way?
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Post by jamiehirst on Feb 18, 2016 15:58:02 GMT
4th of May so in theory plenty of time, hopefully if I get a few wins in my pace will pick up.
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Post by clubby on Feb 18, 2016 18:36:41 GMT
Hi jamiehirstDon't be too hard on yourself. Sometimes it helps to look at things from a different perspective. I will give you an analogy which works for me: I have a problem cleaning windows. I can never get them clean enough. I keep seeing more spots and smears no matter what I do. Because the glass doesn't give me a positive sparkly feedback I get terribly depressed about it. So I don't clean windows and they get dirtier and dirtier and I stick my head in the sand. One day I decided to look at it the job another way. Now, I don't clean windows - instead I dirty the cloth. I get great feedback from the cloth and clean windows are a by-product. The question is - Can this principle be applied to your dissertation?
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Post by contrarymary on Feb 18, 2016 18:44:28 GMT
dirtying the cloth clubby you are a genius, thank you
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Post by jamiehirst on Feb 18, 2016 20:22:18 GMT
Hi jamiehirst Don't be too hard on yourself. Sometimes it helps to look at things from a different perspective. I will give you an analogy which works for me: I have a problem cleaning windows. I can never get them clean enough. I keep seeing more spots and smears no matter what I do. Because the glass doesn't give me a positive sparkly feedback I get terribly depressed about it. So I don't clean windows and they get dirtier and dirtier and I stick my head in the sand. One day I decided to look at it the job another way. Now, I don't clean windows - instead I dirty the cloth. I get great feedback from the cloth and clean windows are a by-product. The question is - Can this principle be applied to your dissertation? This is probably the only good advice I have received for tackling my issues with perfectionism, I am usually told just not to be which isn't really very helpful I think in general I still have a lot of guilt tied up into things like this, I don't really know when I can give myself slack because its a dyslexic or ADHD thing or when I am just being crap about working I think I am very lazy person too which muddies the issue. This just kinda leads to me being useless and hating myself, sometimes I push past and ignore it other times I just give in and sulk about all the stuff I mess up. Its a very childish attitude I know, I am working on it for sure it used to be much worse I can usually accept now that I am sorta bright and may be slightly disadvantaged.
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Post by clubby on Feb 18, 2016 23:31:58 GMT
jamiehirst Let us know how you are getting on. We are all here to help in any way we can. Our future depends on each other, because only ADHDers can trully see the hidden disability. It can be fun down the ADHD rabbit hole, but sometimes it is necessary to climb to the surface. I have a big filing project to complete within the next month and I am seriously procrastinating over it. I am going to take my own advice, and see if I can break through the barrier. I know "the dirty cloth" works with cleaning, but can it work in the office. And in what way? Watch this space. I will report back.
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Post by Kathymel on Feb 19, 2016 2:07:07 GMT
These are the deadlines my tutor gave me. My submission date is a couple of weeks before yours. I copied them in indelible pen on to this cupboard because I sanded it down 3 years ago and haven't got round to painting it yet. I figured I might do it when I finish this dissertation hell.
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Post by clubby on Feb 19, 2016 14:56:59 GMT
Oh Kathymel, That list makes me feel utterly unwell. Poor you. There has to be a better way for us.
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Post by Kathymel on Feb 19, 2016 18:43:47 GMT
Oh Kathymel, That list makes me feel utterly unwell. Poor you. There has to be a better way for us. It did when I first saw it - I was horrified. But then it worked. Now I just sit down and get on with it every week because there's no choice. If I'd written it for myself I would have ignored it. Also, I would have stayed with the same chapter until it was 'perfect'. This way I am forced to leave each one for a week or two, so I come back to it with fresh eyes. I've never been happier writing an assignment.
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Post by clubby on Feb 19, 2016 20:12:42 GMT
Kathymel That is fabulous and very exciting Makes total sense to me.
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Post by vagueandrandom on Feb 20, 2016 10:04:08 GMT
I think in general I still have a lot of guilt tied up into things like this, I don't really know when I can give myself slack because its a dyslexic or ADHD thing or when I am just being crap about working I think I am very lazy person too which muddies the issue. This just kinda leads to me being useless and hating myself, sometimes I push past and ignore it other times I just give in and sulk about all the stuff I mess up. Its a very childish attitude I know, I am working on it for sure it used to be much worse I can usually accept now that I am sorta bright and may be slightly disadvantaged. jamiehirst backpedaling a bit on this thread and going off on a slight tangent, although all this study advice is brilliant!. . All the words I've put into bold seem to be pretty common in ADHD. The perfectionism and dwelling on the negative can be down to hyperfocus. The word that got me was childish as it's something that's come up a fair bit on different threads recently in different ways. The lack of emotional filter can make us emotionally childish and there's nothing wrong with it, but society's expectations of adult behaviour fills us with guilt and shame and we expend a lot of energy trying to keep the lid on to fit in. The best thing about it is our endless sense of wonder. . .an overactive, constantly moving and linking brain can be amazing!. . . . if you can sometimes rein it in to do some of the boring practical things that we all have to do We often dwell too much on the negatives here on the forum and it's nice sometimes to take a breath and think about how boring life would be if we were NT
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Post by clubby on Feb 20, 2016 21:31:10 GMT
This is such an important thread, that my brain has gone into hyperfocus over it.
How do we face these nasty little deadlines without so much stress?
I have a theory, I am here to test.
I believe that "We" see energy in our brains differently to "NTs".
This is my subjective view - Does anyone feel the same?
I see energy as a network of connected relationships which my brain attempts to keep intact.
NT's are what I call "Chunkers". They break up the network of relationships into chunks. Then they use the chunks to build systems, just like playing with Lego.
For example Time is a chunk and 1 hour is a chunk of time. My brain does not see time in chunks, although I do understand what an hour is.
The relevance to this thread is that my soul finds chunking offensive. It can accept living in a chunk but it cannot accept creating a chunk.
When I am asked to conform to society where "chunking" is expected, my soul weeps as one who is asked to kill one's brother.
I would prefer to wait for the stars to line up, for the seas to part, rather than commit relationship murder. I procrastinate.
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Post by clubby on Feb 22, 2016 20:26:26 GMT
Here's my next thought about tackling horror projects.
The way I see energy is as a mass of relationships. It is hard work keeping track of how things are connected so when I tackle a new project or one I have been away from for a while, the pile of stuff feels like a heap of string that has got muddled into an impossible knot.
When I have to turn a mess of string into a nice neat ball, there is temptation to chuck it in the bin, run away or get the scissors out. My soul will not let me ruin a good resource so I have to sort it out.
The answer is to throw thoughtless energy at it. Pick up the mess of string and pull it, push it , chuck it in the air until something makes sense. Perhaps an end appears and there is the start of the ball. Keep going throwing energy at it, teasing out the sense.
The same principle can be used for projects that are really complex and terrifying to start.
I put all the stuff on a table and throw energy at it. If I see something that I know what to do with, I deal with it, otherwise I just keep moving everything about till the sense pops out.
Eventually the table top clears enough to feel rewarded. Time to take a break.
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Post by clubby on Feb 23, 2016 15:23:53 GMT
Have come down with the flu and my filing project is more like a peat bog than a pile of string.
Decided to look up Hallowell's Delivered from Distraction to see how he recommends dealing with all these piles!!
Chapter 36 How to get rid of piles. I quote:
"One good way to start is to create a filing system. But you must take care to keep it simple. Otherwise, you will soon create new piles .........."
Well Mr Hallowell, you ain't from my planet or else you're just repeating what your "chunking" therapist told you.
The creation of simple filing system in the world us ADHDers live in is like asking a pig to fly to the moon.
Simple filing systems are what "chunkers" create to stuff full of chunks of information with broken relationships.
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Post by jamiehirst on Feb 23, 2016 23:05:36 GMT
To update I emailed my tutor about deadlines a few days ago still no reply so I decided to make my own instead, feel better about the work even if progress is slow but thats partially because of the work I have to finish for my dad.
I am hoping to be sending off my first two chapters of 2000 each to my tutor by 1st of march, the first chapter was already basically done but the second needs a rewrite because it got massively off topic however much of it is still usable. I think keeping my mood seems to be the most important thing as really its not much work for just over 2 months. I don't know how to keep up willpower though it seems really hard to concentrate, I don't know if I am distracting myself or if this is just it like one minute I am working the next I am on reddit or playing games, I am shockingly lazy at times.
I think this project has made it so clear to me how poor my concept of time is, like I live a lot in the instant moment and especially when I don't try and consciously think about past and future I totally zone out from it, very oblivious I guess.
So I find the idea of being unable to 'chunk' up my life very relatable clubby, I just feel overwhelmed a lot of the time which is kind of humiliating at times.
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Post by alison on Feb 24, 2016 0:08:26 GMT
Hi there, I am currently awaiting an appointment for diagnosis and just found this forum and saw your post. I completed my MA aged 46 whilst working full time and looking after three kids but it nearly finished me off and I gained loads of weight as I would start work at 10pm fueled by Galaxy and Redbull. The lack of confidence, the fear, the procrastination, the sitting staring blanly at the screen then realing an hour had passed, the numerous online orders for things I didn't need and couldn't afford, being late fir deadlines, the four year extension, the doctors note begging the University at the 11th hour to let me have one final extension... you get it. My strategy was to decide it was not going to pass but I might as well just have a go and enjoy the research. I trEated research as if I was a detective, following trails to other sources through quotes etc. I had a daily battle, I would start on a chapter,, go off topic, spend ages messing about, get upset, throw myself on the bed and cry, telling myself how useless I was, then having cried it out I would be kind to myself and tell myself that if it was causing me such distress then just leave it, don't do it, not the end of the world... THEN my fighter would come back and I would think No, I can do this, yes I don't have to, my life doesn't depend on it, but I want to complete it for me. This cycle of write, throw myself on bed, cry, berate myself, dry my tears, be kind to myself, decide I didn't need to but wanted to continued for 6 weeks but hey, I completed it, with one day to spare, had it bound and drove it all the way to hand it in in person. I thought, well if I pass it is a bonus but I doubt it, but at least I finished it. Then, guess what? I got a phonecall weeks later from my tutor to tell me I had passed! with Distinction!!!! Hang in there, you can do it, if you want it bad enough. Just throw something together and keep on throwing at it, don't try tidy it or sort it t the moment, just chunk it into 10 x 1000 or 20 x 500 pieces and it will all come together. However, please stay off of the chocolate and the redbull. God bless, I will be praying for you. A
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Post by Kathymel on Feb 24, 2016 0:10:55 GMT
"One good way to start is to create a filing system. But you must take care to keep it simple. Otherwise, you will soon create new piles .........." Well Mr Hallowell, you ain't from my planet or else you're just repeating what your "chunking" therapist told you. The creation of simple filing system in the world us ADHDers live in is like asking a pig to fly to the moon. My psych advised me that I might find myself more able to cope if I decluttered my home and attended to time management and organisation. I was like, you know why I'm here, right?
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Post by vagueandrandom on Feb 24, 2016 0:52:36 GMT
I always think that I'm quite well organised and if there's something really important I can give myself deadlines that are achievable.
BUT. . you should see my filing 'systems' ie piles and boxes and multiple lists which I'm always trying to consolidate into one big list.
I've thrown loads of stuff away in the move and still haven't unpacked, yet I'm developing multiple piles and the living room floor can't be seen for papers.
And I can't move them because they're IMPORTANT and if I move them I won't SEE them. . .
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Post by clubby on Feb 24, 2016 9:44:25 GMT
I've tried all sorts of filing system for making the piles disappear but they all fail because the information never seems to fit into the container I've chosen. Many years ago I got one of those lovely wallet things for business cards. The manufacturers assume that all business cards are the same size. What a mess! Might as well have a big pile of cards in a box. I am like vagueandrandom. I am terrified of filing the piles and then forgetting their existance. I just don't get it. It has got to be something to do with thinking in networks as opposed to "chunks". If this is the case, then maybe we need to think who the filing system benefits. When you think about it, most of the information we carry is for the benefit of other people like the government or the university or the health centre or the utility services. In that case the "chunks" need to fit them. Just like Kathymel 's tutor's "chunked" deadline list. jamiehirst 's Dissertation chunking essentials - designed to interface a network thinker with a chunking establishment: 1 The Time Chunk - this is the deadline which can be broken down into smaller chunks if you can bare it 2 The Format Chunk - this is the university's standard format for dissertations which may be rubbish but must be adhered to. 3 The Academic Chunk - no matter how much you disagree with the theory you have to prove you can regurgitate it. If we can interface with these 3 chunks (mind over matter as they are contrary to the values of a network thinker) then everything else inside the chunks can be done in our own creative way. Getting back to my filing project. I am still no further forward. I am going to go and learn carpentry to build an organic shelving system to take organic boxes which grow as the paperwork bursts out of them. There I go again off on another wandering distraction learning carpentry instead of being a good little chunker. Maybe I should just chunk it all into the bin. Trouble is, tax man would be pissed off!! Is all this pain for the tax man? What a stupid world.
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Post by vagueandrandom on Feb 24, 2016 12:46:14 GMT
I've got 2 filing cabinets with vague filenames, but some things fit into more than one section. . . but it minimises the amount of places to look for things.
The cabinets are for things that are not currently in play, or stuff like passport/insurance/certificates which I don't need so often, but need to be able to find.
I find that if I can't see things or lists then they 'disappear' from my mind, so I can't file them away.
The piles are for things that need dealing with (or waiting to be filed) I have unopened mail. . I usually make a point of opening mail straight away, but got quite
depressed recently and couldn't do it. Opened mail that needs filing, opened mail/bills/stuff about accounts that needs dealing with, or may need to refer to.
Magnetic whiteboard which is supposed to consolidate my lists and keep tickets/flyers etc in one place near my launchpad.
I also have other lists and papers on clipboards and in notebooks around the house and I try to duplicate my paper diary on my phone/computer.
Launchpad with paper diary open on the week, important papers, receipt bag, hairbrush, shopping bags to take out, pens. . .I have pens/pencils everywhere. .
Gym bag with kit always in it also special gym purse with membership card and money for lockers - not to be taken out.
Everyday bag with purse, sunglasses, book, notebook, pens etc. . The 4 pocket jacket system. . .keys not to be taken out of lower right pocket. .
I impose structure and deadlines and make 'appointments' with myself so that I'll feel bad about not keeping them. .
I seem to have gone off on a 'filing' exploration. . . haven't had much sleep and am a bit hyper with ideas. . .
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