|
Post by marionk on Jun 9, 2017 18:51:20 GMT
So, not sure it was fat after all, but I'm pretty certain it was dietary. My son found a site with cheap but still good quality protein shakes, and they do a whole lot of other supplements as well as vitamins, and they have them all categorised as being good for whatever. One category is 'Mood and Cognition', so that obviously caught my attention. Looking through them I saw that some were listed as being good for insomnia, and not just tryptophan either! Some are also listed as being good for memory, and or acetylcholine production, and not just choline and it's precursors either, so I'm busy looking them up elsewhere on the 'net to see what everyone else says they do, and where they are found naturally. Inositol looks particularly interesting, as it's not in the protein shakes, and I haven't been eating much of any food that has any significant quantity in it. bebrainfit.com/inositol-benefits-mental-health/www.braintropic.com/choline-and-inositol/
|
|
|
Post by marionk on Jul 11, 2017 9:16:07 GMT
Sleep clinic talk was ok, but nothing really useful seems likely to come from it. I've practically sorted my sleep almost as well as it could be, at this time of year anyway. I'm sleeping fairly well through the night, only waking once most nights. Waking at dawn is at least natural, if annoying. I do still get crashingly tired in the daytime, but I'm getting better at giving in and actually sleeping, and feel way better in between times, the times are much clearer too, somehow.
This is all down to diet! At first I struggled to eat enough protein in a day, without putting on weight. I cut out practically everything else, but although that stopped me gaining weight, I knew it would not be healthy long term, so I started adding back the least calorific veggies, and fruit, and that seems to be good. I have totally left out 'loose carbohydrates' though. I had been getting a bit freaked out by the fact that I was only eating half the calories I am supposed to eat in a day, but still not losing weight, yet not hungry or cold and miserable, and actually less tired than 'normal' for me, but then I came across the "Blood Sugar Diet" website, and the 800 fast. Seems it's normal after all, to have to eat less than 1000cals to lose weight! It shows what nonsense most calorie counting dieting is though, when WHAT you eat, has so much effect on how much you need to eat, and from reading peoples' accounts, that is a general thing. So, I tweaked my diet to cut down to a mere 800 calories, and the weight started dropping off at an almost alarming rate, and I was still feeling great. Sleeping a bit more, but not otherwise tired, still way more productive than I have been for years. I decided that I'd be happier losing weight a bit slower though, so as to avoid the things going pear shaped when I run out of glycogen, so have added in some more calories in the form of real home made ice cream made with just eggs cream and fruit. I ate the first of it last night, and this morning I feel great, I slept a bit longer than usual (fell asleep again very soon after waking at dawn, finally waking as bright as a button at 8), and now, two hours later, I'm still not tired! Also, hopping on the scales, I have lost a bit more still! And I feel absolutely brilliant!
|
|
|
Post by marionk on Aug 18, 2017 6:58:23 GMT
I've been taking detailed note of how much protein I've been eating (as well as carbs, fat and total calories) and I've narrowed down my 'tipping point' to 65-70g of protein on a normal pretty inactive day. 60g and I'll be tired and foggy the next day, 75 and I'm ok, and inbetween is borderline. If I'm particularly active, and don't increase my intake significantly, I'll be ghastly the next day too.
This is ofc completely at odds with official UK recommendations.
So, having determined my lowest intake requirement, I am now trying a significantly higher intake, closer to the levels I ate shortly after discovering the US recommendations. I'm hoping that at the very least this will help my sleeping. Having discovered that inositol/choline/eggs are critically important, I will be keeping that up too.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2017 22:18:08 GMT
What's the easiest way to get 70g protein every day?
|
|
|
Post by marionk on Sept 29, 2017 16:16:12 GMT
What's the easiest way to get 70g protein every day? Make sure every meal is primarily something that is a good source of protein, and make up any deficit with protein shakes. I also cut out anything high in carbs and low on other nutrients, otherwise I put on weight. ETA, actually that's not the easiest way. The easiest way is to binge on protein shakes and forget about healthy eating. The healthiest/best way is to get it all from proper home cooked high protein food, while also making sure that you get enough vitamins and trace nutrients, without having to eat so much to get everything you need that you put on weight. I can actually manage this sometimes, but it's a pita and expensive, so I compromise, as above.
|
|
|
Post by marionk on Sept 29, 2017 19:56:03 GMT
I managed to get hold of some melatonin recently, and it definitely helps me get to sleep. I have noticed however that it's somnolant effect is totally negated by lights being on, or even the light of my dimmed laptop screen. Whereas it normally takes about twenty minutes or so to make me drowsy in a dark room, if someone turns a light on, or I read anything on the computer, even only for a few minutes just after taking the tablet, it just doesn't happen. From this and the fact that without taking melatonin, playing quiet games on the computer actually reduces the time it takes for me to get sleepy again from hours to one to one and a half hours, I deduce that I just don't have enough melatonin in my system generally. For some time now (before I was able to try it for myself) I wondered if melatonin was actually able to cross the BBB. Yesterday, I finally remembered to google it, and after finding that yes it does cross the BBB, I then clicked on the wikipedia link and this little nugget caught my attention: "Children with autism have abnormal melatonin pathways and below-average physiological levels of melatonin." Knowing that there is overlap between ADHD and ASD, and forgetting what is meant by 'pathways' I then googled "melatonin pathways ASD" and clicked on this link. I then read the usual explanation of the chain of reactions from tryptophan to melatonin . . . only this time it finished with CYP1A2 being the enzyme I know I have a lot of thanks to my 'lack' of experience with caffeine. (CYP1A2 is the enzyme responsible for caffeine metabolisation.) This also gives an explanation for the paradoxical effect that coffee sometimes has, of actually helping me to sleep. The influx of caffeine makes more work for CYP1A2, so leaving a bit more melatonin in my system. It also potentially explains why so often I am sleepy early in the evening, the natural start of melatonin production, but as it is rapidly metabolised, it's all gone a couple of hours later leaving me wide awake later in the evening. So, I could potentially benefit significantly from medication or food that inhibits CYP1A2 activity. On the down side, brussels sprouts and broccoli, two of my favorite veggies, excellent sources of folate and choline, are inducers.
|
|
|
Post by marionk on Oct 2, 2017 6:17:23 GMT
Well, Saturday, I read that the 'building blocks' for melatonin are B6, zinc, magnesium and folic acid, and, having the appropriate tablets to hand, I took them. I also had ginkgo to hand, and as it is apparently an inhibitor of cyp1a2, I took that too. Within minutes I was feeling dopey, and was actually seriously sleepy for hours after. I figured it couldn't have been effective that quickly though; it must have been co-incidence.
I decided to give it another try at bedtime last night though, with the addition of melatonin for good measure. Melatonin on its own only helps me get to sleep, it doesn't keep me asleep any better than usual, so maybe it was only the ginkgo combined with the melatonin that helped, but I slept for over 7 hours. I couldn't swear that it was unbroken, but if it was, then it wasn't for so long that I looked at the time. I'd've remembered that.
I'll try the ginkgo and melatonin tonight, and the vits, minerals and ginkgo tomorrow night. If I get a good result without the melatonin, that's better because then I won't have to fuss about with getting stuff from abroad. It will be interesting to see how much help the ginkgo is on top of the melatonin alone though.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2017 20:02:23 GMT
Well, Saturday, I read that the 'building blocks' for melatonin are B6, zinc, magnesium and folic acid, and, having the appropriate tablets to hand, I took them. I also had ginkgo to hand, and as it is apparently an inhibitor of cyp1a2, I took that too. Within minutes I was feeling dopey, and was actually seriously sleepy for hours after. I figured it couldn't have been effective that quickly though; it must have been co-incidence. I decided to give it another try at bedtime last night though, with the addition of melatonin for good measure. Melatonin on its own only helps me get to sleep, it doesn't keep me asleep any better than usual, so maybe it was only the ginkgo combined with the melatonin that helped, but I slept for over 7 hours. I couldn't swear that it was unbroken, but if it was, then it wasn't for so long that I looked at the time. I'd've remembered that. I'll try the ginkgo and melatonin tonight, and the vits, minerals and ginkgo tomorrow night. If I get a good result without the melatonin, that's better because then I won't have to fuss about with getting stuff from abroad. It will be interesting to see how much help the ginkgo is on top of the melatonin alone though. Zinc supplementation has done weird things to me. I sometimes take it with selenium and more than once it's completely flattened my mood. Not happy. Not sad. Flat! Not entirely sure it was a bad thing. I also took it once with magnesium and felt weird driving to work. Normally, I know every inch of the car and would class myself as an assertive driver. I felt like I was driving a bus that morning. With a knackered steering rack. On ice. There's at least three forms of B6, I think. Legend has it the cheaper/inactive one is dumped into everything which is not necessarily helpful for our bodies P5P is the active form, IIRC. 5HTP worked quite well for me... for two nights. Then it did nothing. Melatonin worked quite well for a similar period. Then, like you, it would help me sleep but I'd be awake in two hours 'ready to play'. I've not done much with gingko but have some in a drawer somewhere. Let me know if you can reproduce the results
|
|
|
Post by marionk on Oct 3, 2017 8:18:08 GMT
Well, we had a crappy unsolicited telephone call shortly after I'd settled to go to sleep which totally woke me up again, so I ended up taking the melatonin as well as everything else again. I slept well again in the end though, very like the previous night, so nothing new to report on combinations. I do feel ever so slightly 'wired', but not nearly as high as when I first started seroxat, slightly less than the first time increasing mph in fact, but this is longer lasting. I think it may be just that I'm properly awake for the first time in years.
I've had Mg and Zn before, (the exact same tablets) but not noticed anything striking. I've also had (cheapo) B complex before, with no noticeable benefit at all. This is a much higher dose and, I think, more complete collection than I've ever had previously (I'll check later). I'm pretty sure it's better quality than the cheapo supermarket ones, even though it didn't actually cost much more, so maybe it's got the more effective B6.
I've not tried selenium per se, but I've occasionally tried a bunch of brazil nuts as a potential booster, but not noticed anything. (It was effective for a nervous disorder in a certain breed of chickens I have though!)
I've had some benefit from ginkgo previously, and possibly from siberian ginseng, too. But will stick with just ginkgo trials for now.
I find it rather weird that two conditions I have, that are frequently linked (sleep problems and ADHD) and indeed I have had both for at least as long as I can remember, are helped by the same medication, by it's inhibitory effect on two unrelated enzymes. (monoamine oxidase and cyp1a2)
Eh? Wha? ~Maybe there is a link between them, I just googled the two together to check they really are unrelated, and a bunch of research papers comes up, not just one or two. They'll take a while to decipher properly though . . .
|
|
|
Post by marionk on Oct 3, 2017 11:02:58 GMT
Just came across the page that listed the building blocks for melatonin, while closing tabs, and it specifically specifies P5P. Also, my tablets have the usual hydrochloride B6, but unless you have a problem that prevents you from converting the various B6's to P5P, this should not be a problem. I deduce fromit's effectiveness, that I don't have that problem. (Phew!) I suspect that the ineffectiveness of previous tablets compared to these is due to them only having the NRV amounts, whereas I really needed therapeutic amounts, which these tablets do have.
|
|
|
Post by marionk on Oct 8, 2017 17:16:03 GMT
Gah! Even though I don't get any kind of boost from caffeine, it still increases the activity of the enzyme so I still need to take more to get the same effect. Oh, the irony!
(Caffeine actually helps me sleep, by competing with melatonin, delaying the breakdown of the melatonin.)
Another irony is that as well as a superfast caffeine metabolising gene, I probably have a super slow codeine metabolising gene, and while any link between 1A2 and ADHD is indirect and somewhat tenuous, the codeine metabolising gene 2D6 is involved in making dopamine . . .
|
|
|
Post by marionk on Oct 9, 2017 8:54:58 GMT
Well, there aren't many inducers for 2D6, but here's a funny train of thought: If increased intake of a substrate of 1A2 increases it's activity, maybe increasing the intake of a substrate of 2D6 will increase it's activity too, thereby improving dopamine production and decreasing ADHD symptoms. I wonder what 2D6's substrates are . . . well I never! amphetamines! (Among other things ofc)
|
|
|
Post by marionk on Oct 10, 2017 8:05:12 GMT
@boost, have you ever tried the parsley family (parsley, celery, fennel, carrots, parsnip etc.)?
I knew parsley was an MOAI, but I never really tried it, as I found coffee so easy, but having had to drop coffee, for the reason given previously, I need to find an alternative, plus I discovered that psoralen (the MAOI found in apiaceae-parsley family), also inhibits cyp1A2.
I made celery stew a few weeks ago, but I didn't notice any major difference, but a) I was a bit mean with the parsley, (and forgot the turmeric) and b) I was also drinking coffee at the time, so, as I was making it again yesterday, I decided to add loads of parsley, (and I remembered the turmeric). It definitely helps. (I'm pretty sure it's not actually the turmeric, but I'll try and rule it out in the next few days.) I'll have more of the stew tonight and tomorrow, to see if the effect is reliable first though.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2017 22:16:49 GMT
I have not. Have you had any decent/consistent results?
The most effective regime I've found so far is:
1. Sea air (I live 200~ metres from the sea - close to zero effort now) 2. A little resistance training (done at home and weaved into my evening routine so it doesn't bore me too much) 3. Sauna (I aim to go every day; I've been once in the last fortnight) 4. Shitloads of elvanse (om nom, so delicious - sigh) 5. Protein shake (at least one every day, usually first thing)
On top of this, I'll occasionally supplement with vitamin D (winter is coming) and magnesium (not so much now with the sea air). I feel like I've dabbled with quite a few bits n bobs in order to try and anti-ADHD myself and for me, the only things which work consistently appear in the above list. I seem to recall reading that deprenyl (MAOB) would be worth a shot if you're into proper experimenting. I read elsewhere it was not to be trifled with, however.
Enzymatically, my key SNPs would be considered lethargic thus I'm flooded with catecholamines as it is, it would seem.
The mind boggles :s
|
|
|
Post by marionk on Oct 11, 2017 8:49:31 GMT
So far grapefruit juice turmeric and celery stew are working quite well (for sleep), along with high dose B complex. I dropped the zinc and magnesium some days ago, as I developed trigger finger a day or two after starting the melatonin recipe. I'm going to drop the B complex as well now though, as it still hasn't resolved. If anything does turn out to be consistent I will shout it out from the rooftops! 1 Sea air isn't an option, and I didn't notice anything the few times I've been by the sea in the last year or so. 2 Resistance exercise does seem to reduce the level of lethargy that I get when I don't eat enough protein. Possibly because it provides extra muscle, thereby a reserve of protein for use in times of shortage. 3 Sauna, no idea, but warmth, maybe, only in combination with sufficient protein though. I did pretty well abroad in the heat this last trip, but previously I couldn't tolerate the heat at all. 4 Elvanse, I can't get even regular definitely licensed dex, so not a snowball's chance of getting any in the UK, and I don't think I can bring it in from abroad either. 5 Protein, yup. Definitely need a load more than the official guidelines say. Not sure it helps with the ADHD per se, but life is crap when I don't get enough. I haven't found anything that really helps with the underlying scatterbrainedness. Maybe deprenyl would help, if only because it metabolises to amphetamine before it's broken down completely. I'm not sure I can get it prescribed though, or bring it into the country if I get it abroad. MAO-B is the enzyme that breaks down dopamine so inhibiting that is potentially beneficial too. Clorgiline is another very interesting MAOI, research indicated that it is as effective as amphetamines for ADHD, but it seems it was never marketed, so bleep all chance of ever getting any! eta, forgot to say, the fact that it breaks down into amphetamine, is probably why there is scaremongering about it.
|
|
|
Post by vagueandrandom on Oct 11, 2017 8:58:56 GMT
Why can you not get your consultant to prescribe Elvanse?
It's pretty much becoming the first line medication for adults with ADHD and it will be officially
if the new draft NICE Guidelines are approved. Drs don't like prescribing IR dex as it has
potential for abuse. It's also recently gone up in price A LOT, due to the main supplier getting
bought out (or something). I still know plenty of people who are prescribed dex though,
usually as a top-up for when their Elvanse wears off.
|
|
|
Post by marionk on Nov 4, 2017 9:38:58 GMT
Going back to caffeine, I discovered that its breakdown products also 'promote wakefulness' so the rapid breakdown of caffeine actually doesn't explain why coffee doesn't wake me up, even though the overactive enzyme does explain my peculiar evening tiredness pattern.
So I looked into how caffeine is supposed to wake you up, and found that it (and it's metabolites) block adenosine receptors. From that I figure that there is something going on with my adenosine system.
The simplest explanation could be that I produce too much adenosine, this fits well with my daytime sleepiness pattern, and could be explained by an overactive (i.e. ADHD) brain, producing more adenosine than NT's, thereby showing the link between ADHD and sleep disorders, but I'm pretty sure that it is more complicated than that, and there is still the matter of insufficient dopamine being implicated in both.
Also there's the matter of why do our brains work differently at all, and maybe it's the answer to that question that would explain the link with sleep problems.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2017 15:28:59 GMT
When research collides! I've been wondering about this AMPD1 thing on my report: www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs17602729 - I'm the C;T variant. I did quite a bit of research on this at one point but kinda forgot all about it. Explains quite a few of my other issues. Might this be along the same lines as what you're looking into? Attachments:
|
|
|
Post by marionk on Nov 5, 2017 7:28:49 GMT
It's potentially very relevant. Until a few days ago I only knew about ATP, and therefore that adenosine is part of it. I had, once upon a time read about caffeine blocking adenosine receptors, but hadn't made any connection to it being part of ATP. I've only just started looking into it's actions, synthesis and breakdown, but I'm pretty sure it's production is closer to universal than limited to muscle cells. Hence my comment about ADHDers having more of it than NTs. I'll post more when I've got my head around it, but it might be a while as life is throwing me googlies at the moment.
|
|
|
Post by marionk on Nov 5, 2017 11:38:44 GMT
In the meantime, I thought I should post about my experiment with avoiding caffeine.
Official guidance says it's ok to have up to four cups of tea or coffee in a day, as long as the last is at least 6 hours before bedtime, but I've never had more than four teas/coffees in a day, and have tried avoiding coffee in the late afternoon evening many times previously, including recently this year, with no improvement.
In the light of the potential over-stimulation of the 3A4 1A2 enzyme I decided to try something more drastic and clear cut and I have been avoiding tea and coffee completely, drinking more water, herbal tea or highly diluted fruit juice instead, and it's definitely keeping me drowsy for longer in the evenings, so it's much easier to get to sleep when I try and get an early night.
At some point I will try having a drink of coffee first thing in the morning to see if it's still causing too much enzyme activity in the evening even when drunk that far from bed time.
I'm really bummed about not being able to drink coffee, as it has other subtle benefits. Tea is supposed to be good for other things too, but they seem to be more 'statistical' than noticeable. I might try green tea some time, as that's supposed to be good for sleep. (!)
|
|
|
Post by marionk on Sept 8, 2018 10:01:35 GMT
Wow, long time no posting! Coffee/no coffee (or tea) doesn't seem to have any effect at all, but I don't drink much at all, maybe one mug of each a day, but no more, and only rarely do I have a mug of tea in the evening, and never coffee.
That's not what I came to post about though, although it does relate to it in a way.
Before that though, I can't believe I havn't posted about going gfcf! Avoiding casein is phenomenally important!!!!
More recently, I got stung by a wasp, and like the last time I got stung (about thirty years ago!) other insect bites that wouldn't normally bother me for more than a couple of hours, started being much more bothersome, to the point that they were disturbing my sleep significantly. I also remembered that years ago, I got so sensitive that my arm swole up and I went to the doc and he gave me antihistamine, so I started using Anthisan (an antihistamine cream).
At first I just dabbed it on existing bites, but I was still getting bothered by new bites in the middle of the night, so I slapped a load on the most likely to be bitten area as a preventative measure.
Not only did it stop me noticing any bites, but I slept the night through, and next day I felt good all day. I knew antihistamines are supposed to make you drowsy, but this was different, so I googled antihistamine and sleep. Turns out that all the woowoo over sleeping tablets is rather overegged. They're just antihistamines, some of the safest medecines around!
more soon
|
|
|
Post by vagueandrandom on Sept 9, 2018 18:43:26 GMT
marionk Hi! You can take antihistamine tablets to reduce insect bite swelling too! They don’t make me drowsy though.
|
|