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Post by marionk on Oct 26, 2016 11:15:34 GMT
My hands are shaking, it's 11.05, I've just been on the phone for about tn minutes from 10.50. Totally unexpected call from DWP. I thought at first it was for Mum, but then he asked for me, and the penny dropped, or at least I thought it had. Heart thumping (still is). . .
just had a phone call from someone else - nice one this time, and my heartbeat is still faster than usual, and my ears are ringing too, I've just noticed.
Ok, ghastly phone call, what was it about?
Phone call out of the blue - I thought it was their idea of breaking bad news gently, so I'm thinking CRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAP
-but it turns out it's to - get this!- book a phone call!!!!!
So, I'm freaking out and the guy tells me not to raise my voice!!
I apologise, and tell him I'm stressed, what does he expect, he replies, well we don't expect tears, I said, well you've got them!
With hindsight this is pissing me off too, as he had associated the 'raised voice' with tears, but still was nasty enough to tell me off for raising my voice. And they should bleeping well expect people to be upset!!!!
Gah, Mum keeps talking to me, and I keep losing the thread.
So. . . it's not to tell me the letter is in the post, it's to book a call to discuss the assessment - I think the gist of it was that the assessment was so long ago, that they're hoping things have changed, and I'm now capable of going back to work, (although he said several times, that he didn't know what the decision . . . now it's getting even hazier, did he say it hadn't been made yet? )
How in God's name am I supposed to remember anything anyone said, that far back? I do remember some bits, but wtf, " to discuss the assessment" what the bleeping F?!?!
Reading between the lines, (Gvt. wants to kick everyone off benefits, regardless, so this phonecalling shenanigins is not for my benefit,) they want to kick me off but must be having doubts about it, i.e. - and he pretty much said this outright at one point - they want to know it my condition has improved (in a couple of months?!?!) so that I am capable of going back to work.
So, yeah, trying to calm down and take this as a positive sign, but ye gods!, I have to deal with another assessment, OVER THE PHONE!!
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Endymion
Member's not posted much yet
Posts: 34
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Post by Endymion on Oct 26, 2016 13:27:48 GMT
Just tell them you will not be doing it over the phone due to the nuances of your individual disability making it extremely difficult to do so.
I suspect they can't force you to do it over the phone if you agree to do it face to face or by other alternative means. If they maintain you must have a telephone assessment, then you insist that they register that you have made a complaint about this process, your inability to do it in this format and that by continuing to proceed by this method they are not complying with their requirements under the Equality Act to make reasonable adjustments - presuming that given they previously did face to face interviews etc, there's no reason why they cannot any more for exceptional cases.
Remember that if part of your stated disability is not being able to deal with phonecalls etc, then being able to complete a telephone assessment is indeed proof (although we all know it isn't/shouldn't be as it's done under duress) of your capability to do this and can, and probably will be, used to dispute any such assertions made by you.
If you are on good terms with your GP/psych they may well be happy to write a letter confirming your inability to do such an assessment and will act as further evidence to support your stance and that it is, in your case, inequitable to have a telephone assessment.
Good luck!
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Post by marionk on Oct 26, 2016 19:18:38 GMT
eta:cross posted. Now reading gc7's post. This is a reply to Endymion's post.
I did object, and asked what would happen if I didn't agree to the phone call, but it was all a bit much to take in, let alone have any idea of the potential consequences either way. Definitely felt under duress!
He said I didn't have to, but if I didn't they would make the decision based on the interview only, but I got the impression that they would be assuming, seeing as it was so long since the interview, that I was (getting) better. So I agreed, as I felt that I need to tell them that no, things have not improved to any relevant degree.
On the other hand though, I suspect that they just want another opportunity to trip me up into saying something that can be interpreted as being fit for work, so I should probably have refused.
I really don't want to deal with another shitty phone call, and I'm seriously thinking about cancelling, or at least trying to. God knows how hard it is to get the right person on the phone! But then again, I don't trust them not to call it a 'missed appointment', and use that as a pretext to stop the benefits. ARRRGH!
I think I have been tricked/pressured/hurried into agreeing to something that I'm not honestly capable of dealing with properly.
I think when I get the call, I should point out to them that I should not have agreed to take the call, that I felt pressured, and that I have problems taking things in, even face to face, and also remembering things when needed, and am even worse when I have to do it over the phone.
Yeah, tricksy bleepers.
I'm not sure whether it is a stated part or not, but the fact that I got told off for raising my voice, as well as my making a crap decision under the stress, and feeling as sick as a dog should be enough to prove that I can't deal with this kind of stuff over the phone.
And there's this BS that it has to be some other assessment guy that talks to me. Why on earth couldn't today's guy simply ask if I there has been any change? Answer, no, pass that information on. IF 'yes', THEN maybe another call, but seeing as you always have to tell them of any change . .. .
Maybe that's it. Maybe they figure that stuff must have changed that I haven't told them about.
I hate being jerked around Giving up and pressing 'send'
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Post by marionk on Oct 26, 2016 21:15:07 GMT
gc7 if it was that, he wasn't even hinting it. Reading between the lines, that is kind of what I think is going on though, in that they haven't totally decided yet. I don't believe they genuinely use the points system for deciding anything though. The first time (and the second iirc) I scored 0, yep zero. And there was no information (anywhere public) as to how many points you might score on a question. They made it look like you'd have to fill every possible criteria bar 2, to score the required points to qualify. I was livid because you'd have to be practically comatose to fill so many criteria (as well as because there was no way I should have scored zero on everything).
So basically the points system is BS, the questions are carefully worded to be obscure and misunderstood as well as leaving gaping gaps for interpretation and manipulation by interviewers and the people who actually make the decisions. The whole system stinks, and anyone with an ounce of decency or sympathy and the wit to see what was happening quit or got the sack years ago. heh re-reading your post (again) I see you already said much the same thing. It's not just the worry, that makes me sick to the stomach, it's the fact that it's all just a hair's breadth away from corruption, and that makes me angry too.
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Post by marionk on Oct 28, 2016 11:03:49 GMT
Arrrgh! I should not have accepted to take the phone call (not happened yet, at time of starting this post) on so many levels. As well as worrying about what I said or should have said on the first call, I am doing the same for the arranged one. What do I say, what will I say. And wtf is going on? That's made worse by the possibility that my (possibly) rather paranoid idea of what I suspect they are thinking about me, might just be right, and that if so, then there is something I could do/say/hint at that would swing things in my favour, but I don't want to go down that route as it would bring other problems with it. But can I stop myself? Will I just blurt out something stupid? And then there's all those implications that simply accepting to take the call implies that I am capable of dealing with stuff over the phone, even though I have fecked up big time over even the first call. To whit, I go out Friday afternoons, 2-4. It's a regular thing and I don't like to miss it, so why did I accept to take a call when I should be elsewhere? I FORGOT, is why. So now I don't know what the heck to do. If I try and get in touch with them to cancel or get them to call me on my mobile, I will be blocking the line, and actually I don't really want to talk to them while I'm out, I don't want to be freaking out in front of (not close enough for that kind of thing) friends. OK that's that option removed. So do I go, and F the call? Or miss the most therapeutic thing in my life. Ok so it's only one week but it'll be the second time this month that I've missed it. I think. Yes, I'm sure I did, but I can't remember why. Oh yeah, I had a cold. At the time that I agreed to the call, and despite writing it down, I missed that fact that it means potentially sitting waiting for the bloody call for FOUR HOURS! AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHH!
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Post by marionk on Oct 28, 2016 11:18:42 GMT
Hi again marionk It absolutely IS corrupt. This is a system deliberately designed to deny the needy the most basic means of support and to confuse those people who are least likely to be able to understand complex forms. Here is a helpful link to the page on the Benefits and Work site that gives a list of the 'descriptors' and the points the DWP awards for each: www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/personal-independence-payment-pip/pip-points-systemThis one is for PIP specifically, but the ESA system is quite similar. The questions are VERY misleading. For example, you might think - because of the wording - that question 7 (communicating verbally) part (e) Cannot express or understand verbal information at all even with communication support means that someone is LITERALLY unable to speak and unable to understand anything at all (for example, because they are comatose). However, I would argue that this section of the question could quite easily be appropriate for someone with severe ADHD to answer "yes" to. Because we have an involuntary 'altered consciousness' with regard to communication: i.e. we drift in and out of attentiveness, it is therefore logical that we do not actually understand any communication in the way that a neurotypical person would. We would also not be able to understand anything at all in the same way a neurotypical person would EVEN if we had someone acting as 'communication support' because that person would have no idea which parts of the communication we had missed or misinterpreted. Therefore, someone with severe ADHD would never actually understand communication in the same way as a neurotypical person and would always be at a disadvantage. They may also continue to experience problems if taking medication. Of course, it does depend upon the severity of the ADHD, but if you struggle to listen to things all the way through, 'lose' chunks of information due to inattention, experience regular attention lapses during normal conversation, impulsively leap to a conclusion and act upon information as you perceive it (even although you may have missed bits), suffer from extreme social anxiety that makes it difficult for you to speak to people face-to-face or on the telephone, etc. then I would say that it would be perfectly permissible to say that you DO have these problems and that you cannot express or understand verbal information at all. After all - what they want to establish is whether you can function and understand/communicate like a normal person, or do so with help; with severe ADHD you definitely cannot and having someone to explain things to you all the time would not help or even be feasible. The questions are just not worded appropriately for ADHD (or other neuro-developmental conditions, like Aspergers, for that matter). I hope that may help in some way. The Benefits and Work site has some good advice about filling in these forms. Most of it is free. On 'misleading questions', I remember one in particular at a previous assessment. It still has me figuratively bashing my head against the wall, and it was years ago now. "Do you obsess over things?" I was like what?!?! what the heck does that mean? I asked "You mean like obsessive compulsive disorder?" I can't remember what she actually said but what ever she said, and I'm pretty sure it was only confirmation that yes OCD would fit, not a proper explanation of 'obsessing over things'. So I just said, "No, nothing like that." So, zero points there!! Even though, as this thread illustrates, I do indeed obsess over things! The really nasty thing about any and all interviews with people with mental problems, it that whatever we say is taken as correct, and held against us, even though we're blabbing away talking bo***cks.
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Post by vagueandrandom on Oct 28, 2016 12:44:25 GMT
marionk I've been trying to find out where I read it and just wasted an hour. . . So I'll say it anyway and might be wrong . .'misleading questions' might not be for NTs. . I'm sure I've read in more than one place that people with ADHD can have problems recognising, expressing and correctly naming emotions and traits. . .for example you don't recognise your frequent obsessiveness because it's 'normal' for you and not what you associate with obsession as OCD and you may even give it a different name. .being on a mission. . .absorbed . .focused . . I've been interested in this recently regarding anxiety and calm . . I'm becoming to realise that what I think of as 'calm' isn't what most people think. . .and I've always said that I'm not particularly anxious, just by certain obvious triggers (phone, crowds, deadlines) . .but, for a few days after increasing my meds, I felt a lack of anxiety. . I didn't feel calm, as in slowed down, but people said that I seemed calm. . I'm definitely not calm after the world ganging up on me again and putting external pressures on me that have caused such disruption that I'm in full blown panic/overwhelm running round in circles and getting nothing done!
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Post by marionk on Oct 28, 2016 12:59:10 GMT
vagueandrandom Yes! Several yeses, in fact. I find that medication helps with anxiety over little things that don't really matter, but not over the important stuff. When I first realised it reduced my anxiety levels, I was worried that it might make me blase about things that I should actually be worried about but thankfully that isn't so. I've been going stir crazy these last few hours, and the DWP still hasn't called. I've pretty much decided, I'm going out. I can't stand sitting here waiting, waiting, waiting, and I'm going to worry and obsess over it whether I stay in and take it or go out and miss it. I'm pretty sure the guy said that there wouldn't be any actual sanctions if I missed it or w/e, just they would make the decision on the information they already had. So, it's all a bit stupid. meh I might write more when I get back but I need to grab stuff and go now, or I'll be late. bbl
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Post by vagueandrandom on Oct 28, 2016 13:09:56 GMT
Ha Ha! I think you've hit the jackpot of ADHD thinking errors today!
ADHD IN ADULTS (Young/Bramham) Typical thinking errors of people with ADHD Type of error
Jumping to conclusions: Negative interpretations in the absence of facts Example: Predicting the future or reading someone’s mind
All or nothing: There seems to be no middle ground and everything can be categorised as ‘black’ or ‘white’ Example: I can’t concentrate at all
Overgeneralising: Drawing extreme conclusions from a single event Example: I am always tactless and offend people when I speak to them
Catastrophising: Exaggerating and overestimating outcomes Example: I have missed a deadline and therefore am going to be sacked
Personalising: Taking the blame for everything that goes wrong or is unpleasant, believing that everything people do or say is a personal reaction to you Example: It’s all my fault
Negative focus: Ignoring or misinterpreting positive aspects due to learned helplessness. Always assuming the worst Example: The glass is half empty rather than half full
Shoulds and oughts: A sense of failure to meet standards or expectations, without consideration of whether these are reasonable or realistic Example: I should always get it right
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Post by marionk on Oct 28, 2016 17:49:15 GMT
Ha Ha! I think you've hit the jackpot of ADHD thinking errors today! ADHD IN ADULTS (Young/Bramham) Typical thinking errors of people with ADHD Type of error Jumping to conclusions: Negative interpretations in the absence of facts Example: Predicting the future or reading someone’s mind All or nothing: There seems to be no middle ground and everything can be categorised as ‘black’ or ‘white’ Example: I can’t concentrate at all Overgeneralising: Drawing extreme conclusions from a single event Example: I am always tactless and offend people when I speak to them Catastrophising: Exaggerating and overestimating outcomes Example: I have missed a deadline and therefore am going to be sacked Personalising: Taking the blame for everything that goes wrong or is unpleasant, believing that everything people do or say is a personal reaction to you Example: It’s all my fault Negative focus: Ignoring or misinterpreting positive aspects due to learned helplessness. Always assuming the worst Example: The glass is half empty rather than half full Shoulds and oughts: A sense of failure to meet standards or expectations, without consideration of whether these are reasonable or realistic Example: I should always get it right Hmm not sure that they are all errors in my thinking. At the end of the day, I will either be awarded benefits or not. That IS black and white. I'm not particularly jumping to any conclusion, just very worried it might be bad, as I have no solid information. It is entirely possible that ADHDers can imagine more potential outcomes than NT's, and we almost certainly think about the possibilities a lot more than NT's. Including, but not limited to, catastrophes. I tend to find my mind goes crazy when I don't have enough information to make a decent decision, but I'm not at all sure that NT's don't just fill the void with preconceptions and prejudices. Negative focus, well maybe, but isn't that a survival thing, and not limited to ADHDers? Can I jump this gap? Possibly, but if I don't I will end up as jam at the bottom of the ravine, or swept away by the river. Sure it could save hours of trekking the long way round, but focusing on the on the negative is more likely to save your life than overconfidence. Anyway that's enough of that, I wrote that ^^ not long after I got back, and now I don't have the mental energy to read it over. I think I did the right thing to go out and drat the phone call; certainly in the short term. It broke the cycle of worrying about something that is outside my control.
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Post by marionk on Nov 3, 2016 10:35:08 GMT
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Post by contrarymary on Nov 15, 2016 19:54:37 GMT
I'm sorry this is so pants.
are you going to appeal?
xxxx
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Post by marionk on Nov 17, 2016 3:38:27 GMT
I'm sorry this is so pants. are you going to appeal? xxxx Apparently you (I) absolutely have to apply for a mandatory reconsideration before you (I) can put in an appeal. Last time I was put through all this c$%&, this requirement was a delaying tactic so that the time for putting in an appeal would expire before anyone got round to it. My advisor that time round was aware of this and so put in an appeal straight away. That was when MIND advocates were helping people with the process. This time round it's a different group entirely, nothing to do with mental health, paid for apparently by the gov't and for that and another reason, as well as the fact that they seem not to be aware of this as a delaying tactic, I am not sure I can trust them. I grew up, and have spent most of my life being far too trusting of people in general, but these days it's so hard to avoid the near constant reminders of how devious this gov't is, that I am finally taking my own cynical view as more likely to be true than not. So, yeah, tomorrow, I must phone DWP and ask them for an appeal form and a copy of the report. Apparently the, more left out than said, bs they sent with the result is apparently not the actual report.
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Post by marionk on Nov 17, 2016 4:49:35 GMT
I am still a way off despair per se, but I am sick with worry, and I do despair at the way this country (and others) are headed. In retrospect I am amazed that I got PIP with comparative ease. It sounds like they are rolling out the same bs for PIP as for ESA. I think a visit to CAB is in order, after I've phoned DWP to get the ball rolling on an appeal. I've put my name to a bunch of better worded petitions, but I live in a very blue area, so I don't believe my mp gives a flying f%*£ about anyone else but himself. It needs a lot of mp votes in parliament to get all this crap implemented and I have no reason to believe he didn't vote for it all. This is a government with no social conscience - their mantra is "we know that people are better off in work" (which roughly translates as "work or f*@# off and die"). There should be a thread of such translations. The one that pisses me off the most is their take on 'glass half empty, glass half full', which roughly translates as, 'if you're not dead, you don't need help'
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Post by contrarymary on Nov 17, 2016 21:01:49 GMT
I'm sorry this is so pants. are you going to appeal? xxxx So, yeah, tomorrow, I must phone DWP and ask them for an appeal form and a copy of the report. Apparently the, more left out than said, bs they sent with the result is apparently not the actual report. Hang in there, it's SO worth doing despite - even because of - the s**t barriers they throw across your path. Start where you are, use what you have, do what you can. Hope you can get all the help you need. (((((((((( marionk)))))))))))) xx
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Post by marionk on Nov 17, 2016 22:02:23 GMT
I managed to phone them this morning. They haven't got the request for mandatory reconsideration yet, so I'll need to check that it's on the way before I phone them about it again.
I did get some information on the process though. It's changed a bit, and I reckon I should check it's right, but basically the time limit for appeal doesn't start ticking down until you (I) have received the response to the reconsideration.
So it's still delaying tactics, wait for this answer wait for that answer, wait some more for another, then maybe wait for a date to go to tribunal, then wait some more, then, hopefully, months after the letter saying you have to be reassessed, you get to breathe again.
But (I hope) not the seriously nasty trick that it used to be.
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Post by contrarymary on Nov 28, 2016 17:43:48 GMT
the going rate outside London seems to be 70k for a doctor, 38k for a nurse or physio... examples heregood luck tomorrow
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Post by marionk on Nov 28, 2016 20:20:44 GMT
Hi marionk I just thought I would update with a little more information on DWP assessments here. I have an assessment for PIP tomorrow. As I am worried about the fact that ATOS will be carrying this out and I know that their assessors are incentivised to find ways of disqualifying claimants, I phoned them to ask if they could record my interview. The person I spoke to said that it could be recorded, BUT - I would have to supply dual recording equipment: either dual dictaphones or cd recording equipment (phones are not permitted). As buying equipment like this is prohibitively expensive and the whole process of setting it up (even if I was able to get my hands on the equipment) would be additional stress at a meeting that is very stressful anyway, there is no chance of me being able to record the assessment. They said that I could bring someone with me to "take notes". I cannot reasonably expect my husband to support me through the interview and make extensive notes at the same time. This is clearly another disingenuous move on the part of ATOS to make sure that their assessors cannot be held to account for twisting of the truth regarding what happens/is said during the assessment. The whole process is seriously corrupt. I will report back on a separate thread after the assessment has taken place. Incidentally, I recently saw a job advert for Health Care Assessors to carry out work on behalf of the DWP for ATOS in my local area. The salary offered was over £70k for a 9-5 job. I am still wondering if that was a typo. Pay in my area is well below the national average for most people and bearing in mind that a general nurse without extra duties usually earns somewhere in the mid £20K region if employed in the NHS. 20 pieces of silver per claimant would be a more appropriate pay rate, I reckon.... That shows how paranoid they are about being taken to court! You can record anything you like if you are there in person, and you don't even have to tell them. If you want to record over the phone, you DO have to tell them. That's why you get so many recorded messagess saying "This call may be recorded for training purposes." I'm pretty sure the 'dual recording' business is either a total fabrication intended to be used to intimidate claimants into either not recording or being forced to leave and marked as non-attending, or it might be a requirement if it is to be used in court, but tbh I doubt the latter is the case. Just because it is in the ATOS guidelines, doesn't mean it is legal. (To stop anyone recording.) I believe it would be illegal to publish such a recording without all participants giving proper permission, but that's not the same at all. If you are scared they will bully you into stopping, is it possible to take a witness with you? If they do see you recording and try to stop you, ask for them to bring in a shorthand legal transcriber so that they can give you a transcript before you leave the interview. Anyone with memory problems has good reason and justification for recording their own conversations. Make sure your recorder will record adequately from inside your pocket or wherever it will be during the interview, and start it working before the interview starts. Legal disclaimer: the above information is true and accurate ttbomkab, but I'm not a legal practitioner, so I might be out of date. IMLE their timekeeping is awful, so even if your interview is scheduled for 9am, it's still worth phoning your local advocacy or support service to see if you can get someone to go in with you. I'm not sure of the legality of taking a random relative or friend in with you, but I'm pretty sure anyone will do as long as they don't prompt you. This may be the support services requirement of their employees though, in which case it is presumably to avoid legal repercussions to them. I think that it would be advisable for anyone else you might take in with you also to not say anything (other than say that you requested that they accompany you). I don't know how much right you have to insist that they be allowed to 'sit in' on the interview, but at least if you try and they refuse to allow them in, they will be witness to that.
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Post by vagueandrandom on Nov 29, 2016 7:40:37 GMT
gc7 good luck in the PIP assessment. I'm waiting for my appointment. .my counsellor 'advised' me not to turn up on time (difficult as I've trained myself to overcompensate and always arrive early) and if they keep you waiting, it's a test, so don't sit . . . easy for me as I pace even waiting at the GP . .and "they're not your friends, so don't try to please them" which will be hard for me as I'm a people pleaser and often 'minimise' my difficulties. . I did so in my ASD and both ADHD assessments . . I'm 'lucky' as I have a physical problem too (EDS), which they'll probably take more seriously than ADHD, although it causes me fewer everyday difficulties. Anyway. . .I'll be thinking about you today xx
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Post by marionk on Nov 29, 2016 9:03:31 GMT
gc7 Did those people have anyone with them though? Not mentioning names, but I know someone who took out their phone a few minutes after the start of an ESA assessment interview, and used it to record the rest of the interview. The interviewer could see, and so could the person accompanying the interviewee. It is possible that the interviewer wasn't looking carefully enough to see, but in the light of what you have been told about making recordings, I strongly suspect that it was the presence of the third party that stopped them even saying anything, let alone making the person leave.
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Post by marionk on Nov 29, 2016 9:42:28 GMT
gc7 good luck in the PIP assessment. I'm waiting for my appointment. .my counsellor 'advised' me not to turn up on time (difficult as I've trained myself to overcompensate and always arrive early) and if they keep you waiting, it's a test, so don't sit . . . easy for me as I pace even waiting at the GP . .and "they're not your friends, so don't try to please them" which will be hard for me as I'm a people pleaser and often 'minimise' my difficulties. . I did so in my ASD and both ADHD assessments . . I'm 'lucky' as I have a physical problem too (EDS), which they'll probably take more seriously than ADHD, although it causes me fewer everyday difficulties. Anyway. . .I'll be thinking about you today xx I'm too terrified of the consequences to dare trying to arrive late deliberately, however I did barely make it on time, and the person who was supposed to be going in with me was suddenly unavailable and the replacement was running late! This on it's own had me in bits, plus I had to deal with it on my mobile i.e. over the phone, in public, with a lot of noise around. . . I'm pretty sure I was in the building on time, but at least twice I realised I was waiting in the wrong place, and at least once, even the person accompanying me hadn't realised. It's a bit of a blur, but I know that I was in a right state for a significant time before the interviewer finally called me in. I suspect that he was waiting until I had calmed down, and while, TTBOMKAB nothing was said about my late arrival in the proper interview waiting room, nothing was said about the interviewer keeping me waiting for ages either, nor the state I was in. However he must have seen that I was on my mobile just before and as I went into the building, as he put in the abbreviated 'report' that I was sent with the decision, that I was able to take calls on my mobile . . . hmm just had a thought, that maybe he thought I was I was stopping a call on my mobile when I took my phone out during the interview, but that doesn't fit, because it never rang, and it was obvious I wasn't taking a call anyway. Never before have I had such clear evidence of being watched. I have however frequently had them say I could do something, without mentioning any the related difficulties, or of the consequences of the attempt. And by frequently I mean for everything.
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Post by marionk on Nov 29, 2016 9:46:53 GMT
Sod their rules, they're not legal. Take someone with you though. I daresay somewhere in their (not publicly visible) rules there is a section about what NOT to do if an independent third party is present!
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Post by marionk on Nov 29, 2016 9:51:30 GMT
Their rules are their rules, as well as not legally enforceable on you.
Just because you can see the bit of their rules that seems to say you can't do something, doesn't mean they can legally stop you from making a recording.
A witness' presence will stop a lot of their misbehaviour!
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Endymion
Member's not posted much yet
Posts: 34
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Post by Endymion on Nov 29, 2016 14:32:05 GMT
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Post by vagueandrandom on Dec 29, 2016 20:32:07 GMT
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Post by marionk on Jan 2, 2017 20:30:23 GMT
I was going to post that latest lack of development here, but I think I'll put it on my 'progress report' instead.
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