jonbob
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Post by jonbob on Dec 15, 2016 11:47:30 GMT
Hi guys, it's been a while.
So yeah, as the subject header says. Has anyone found that they've experienced this? It's been a year or so since I was formally diagnosed. Medication unfortunately brought a whole host of nasty side-effects along with it, so that wasn't an option really. That's meant an awful lot of soul-searching and reflection has had to go on, to enable me to get to a point where I'm now just about to start looking for work again.
I know a lot more about myself now than I used to, I understand myself a lot better and feel a lot more comfortable with 'who I am'. One of the bi-products of this is that I know that for me to be happy/content/me, I need to make some significant changes in my life. I'm talking about close relationships, the things that I do on a daily basis, and how I view the world.
In some respects, I think it's because I've finally unpicked the trauma which has been hanging over me, mostly associated with the undiagnosed condition. I now know so much more about myself and why I've done things in the past, as well as how I should handle things in the future. One of the basics being that as things stand, I just don't 'fit' at home. And I know I need to change that. So it's big life changing type stuff that needs to occur, and people are going to get hurt.
So am I being selfish here? Has the fact that I now finally understand myself made me a different person? Is this knee-jerk, or is it something that is absolutely necessary? I'm leaning more toward the latter being the case, but I'd be interested to hear if anyone else has had similar experiences.
Hope you're all well folks
Jon
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Post by vagueandrandom on Dec 15, 2016 13:43:46 GMT
Hi jonbob . .good to hear from you I was wondering what had happened with you just the other day! I remember that we were dx at about the same time and, like you I didn't get on with meds and have decided that they're probably not for me. . I've made big changes in my life . .gave up my job and moved to a city where I know no one and there's no ADHD service. .so I've started campaigning and have set up a local group . .I've also found that getting the dx has made me look at my life and I'm not so hard on myself (most of the time) . . . Things aren't perfect, and I still haven't made friends or got a job, but I'm happier in myself . . I'm not a different person, but a better one . .and it's not being selfish to look after yourself and your needs for once . . It's my 50th birthday today which was an arbitrary date I set years ago to re-evaluate my life and give myself permission to end it if things weren't significantly better. . . it kept me alive several times. . .and things are a bit better. . . I'm pleased to have had my ADHD dx finally and understand WHY I find life so hard . . I hope you're able to make the big changes that you need.
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jonbob
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Posts: 64
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Post by jonbob on Dec 15, 2016 14:48:05 GMT
The discovery that the difficulties I had experienced throughout my life had been largely due to living with ADHD was life-altering. Mostly I am glad that I finally discovered the root cause, as that means I can begin to change things so that I am no longer caught in the loop of unwittingly repeating the same/similar mistakes over and over again. I think one of the biggest things for me has been realising that the 'mistakes' that I've made haven't actually all been mistakes at all. They've been me rebelling against the structures and pre-existing systems that are in place that I blatantly don't fit within. Removing myself from a lot of those constraints has actually helped immensely. Equally, I'm now much more aware that my discomfort in certain scenarios is due to the fact that my condition isn't being sated or used constructively. Whether ort not that may help you on the job front or not I don't know. But if you're aware of what your condition 'needs' to be nourished, perhaps it might be more possible for you to create a life whereby work perhaps isn't the most satisfactory, but your ADHD needs are being met elsewhere. Be that via relationships with likeminded folk, indulging your creative side more regularly, or anything else that you might find stimulating. Don't get me wrong, I would absolutely LOVE for the world to exist in such a way as to give folk like us space to just be, but I think we need to accept that world doesn't exist at the moment. It might have done a thousand years ago, but we need to make a space that fits for each of us individually. Or I could just be talking complete nonsense of course (always possible)
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jonbob
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Posts: 64
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Post by jonbob on Dec 15, 2016 14:55:31 GMT
Hi jonbob . .good to hear from you I was wondering what had happened with you just the other day! I remember that we were dx at about the same time and, like you I didn't get on with meds and have decided that they're probably not for me. . I've made big changes in my life . .gave up my job and moved to a city where I know no one and there's no ADHD service. .so I've started campaigning and have set up a local group . .I've also found that getting the dx has made me look at my life and I'm not so hard on myself (most of the time) . . . Things aren't perfect, and I still haven't made friends or got a job, but I'm happier in myself . . I'm not a different person, but a better one . .and it's not being selfish to look after yourself and your needs for once . . It's my 50th birthday today which was an arbitrary date I set years ago to re-evaluate my life and give myself permission to end it if things weren't significantly better. . . it kept me alive several times. . .and things are a bit better. . . I'm pleased to have had my ADHD dx finally and understand WHY I find life so hard . . I hope you're able to make the big changes that you need. Hey you. Yes, I am still floating around. There's been a wedge of stuff going on in the background. Happy Birthday btw, and do celebrate if you can. A big point of change for me is to realise that I need to be surrounding myself with people who are on a similar wavelength to myself. Feeling like you're not the only person in a room that speaks the language is so validating and worthwhile an experience that it's untrue. Equally, I do think it's also important to try and reduce the number of folk that don't get you down to a minimum. Constantly fighting for understanding can be a real drain. And whilst they aren't ten a penny, those types of people do exist, you just have to keep looking. And that's the killer that we often forget. Us ADHDers are for the most part a really cool, slightly weird bunch to be around. We're passionate, engaging and highly empathetic for the most part. All qualities that make us appealing. So don't ever forget that, it might well be the difference that makes the difference.
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Post by vagueandrandom on Dec 16, 2016 1:06:48 GMT
Yes jonbob I've binned a fair few 'friendships' recently. .even my oldest . . not a happy thing, but best for me . . .I've made some great friends online, here and elsewhere . .and I've made a point of trying to meet IRL. . . there's not another person with ADHD that I've met that I don't like . . and going to a support group has also been good, although I wish it was just for adults and didn't have concerned parents there. . .sorry concerned parents. . I always feel that we don't offer enough of a positive outcome for your kids . .
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jonbob
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Posts: 64
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Post by jonbob on Dec 16, 2016 11:45:19 GMT
Yes jonbob I've binned a fair few 'friendships' recently. .even my oldest . . not a happy thing, but best for me . . .I've made some great friends online, here and elsewhere . .and I've made a point of trying to meet IRL. . . there's not another person with ADHD that I've met that I don't like . . and going to a support group has also been good, although I wish it was just for adults and didn't have concerned parents there. . .sorry concerned parents. . I always feel that we don't offer enough of a positive outcome for your kids . . It's a difficult one isn't it? We're a lot more sensitive to relationships where perhaps there isn't a proper sense of balance. I think there's an element of kickback at play here. Speaking personally, I know that one of the biggest longstanding issues I've had has been my tendency to 'prostitute' my own sense of self, if effect being whatever other wanted or needed. That has had such a negative impact on me over the years, and has taken me a long time recognise and adjust to. It's slightly glib turn of phrase, but it's like a good cleanout isn't it? Or perhaps a 'detox'. Given our overly empathetic nature, any external negativity gets amplified massively. Yet our (or at least in my case 'my') tendency to want to help means we end up taking the flack and forming negative habits whereby people expect that from us. And that's how these negative dynamics get formed. As for the concerned parents? It's a tough one. Whilst they are going through trials with their own children, they really don't know quite how fortunate they are to have diagnosis so early. Looking at those of us who have had a diagnosis later on isn't really the template to use for success. Their kids won't have the associated PTSD (and that's what it is, make no mistake about it) of going undiagnosed for so long. So an adult only group is, at least in my eyes, a much better scenario.
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jonbob
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Post by jonbob on Dec 16, 2016 12:02:02 GMT
gc7You're so lucky to have a husband on the same wavelength. Sadly I don't have that luxury, but you're absolutely right. The 'primary person' in your life needs to be singing from the same song sheet, and the difference that makes is like night and day. That's one of the changes that I'm looking to make in my life. As hard as it is, I know it's the right thing to do. There's a lot to take in and evaluate with late diagnosis. You think you're doing things 'right', getting confused as all hell about the fact that things aren't going 'right' and you think you're working from the 'right' script. Then all of a sudden, the diagnosis comes along and in effect someone is saying to you, 'ok remember that script you've been working from your whole life? Well it turns out we've given you the wrong one and actually THIS is what you need to be looking at. So start from scratch, literally from day 1.' I don't think it's too extreme to say that it's very much like a rebirth in many respects. If that was all it was, I think many of us would probably be ok. We'd learn the new habits and just get on with it. But the big issue is (and always will be) the trauma attached to not being diagnosed. That time of not fitting and not knowing why, and all the things we do and have done which are very much influenced by the condition. I mentioned it vagueandrandom but I do firmly believe that the term PTSD is applicable here. And we need to start considering the 'recovery and moving on' phase with that as part of it. There's an element of self forgiveness that needs to occur, a letting go of the past which has to happen for us to be able to truly move on. An acceptance of the new rules which can't happen until we we acknowledge what has gone before. It's only when we get to that point that we start to see the possibilities and can just get on with life. Even then, it's not exactly easy. But at least the baggage isn't weighing us down. Easier said than done I know. Oh my god do i know! We are like marmite, love us or hate us. We're never going to be for everyone, but for those that we are for, we really are THAT good. And me? Positive? You must have me mixed up with some other bloke
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Post by vagueandrandom on Dec 16, 2016 17:49:44 GMT
It's a difficult one isn't it? We're a lot more sensitive to relationships where perhaps there isn't a proper sense of balance. I think there's an element of kickback at play here. Speaking personally, I know that one of the biggest longstanding issues I've had has been my tendency to 'prostitute' my own sense of self, if effect being whatever other wanted or needed. That has had such a negative impact on me over the years, and has taken me a long time recognise and adjust to. It's slightly glib turn of phrase, but it's like a good cleanout isn't it? Or perhaps a 'detox'. Given our overly empathetic nature, any external negativity gets amplified massively. Yet our (or at least in my case 'my') tendency to want to help means we end up taking the flack and forming negative habits whereby people expect that from us. And that's how these negative dynamics get formed. As for the concerned parents? It's a tough one. Whilst they are going through trials with their own children, they really don't know quite how fortunate they are to have diagnosis so early. Looking at those of us who have had a diagnosis later on isn't really the template to use for success. Their kids won't have the associated PTSD (and that's what it is, make no mistake about it) of going undiagnosed for so long. So an adult only group is, at least in my eyes, a much better scenario.Yes, yes yes. . . On occasions when it's just ADHD adults in the group we can relax and be less serious and talk over each other and sometimes get a bit shouty. . . much more fun! The group I've started is just for ADHD adults. We're hoping to have our first meeting in the new year. Save
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Post by vagueandrandom on Dec 16, 2016 18:12:08 GMT
gc7 You're so lucky to have a husband on the same wavelength. Sadly I don't have that luxury, but you're absolutely right. The 'primary person' in your life needs to be singing from the same song sheet, and the difference that makes is like night and day. That's one of the changes that I'm looking to make in my life. As hard as it is, I know it's the right thing to do. There's a lot to take in and evaluate with late diagnosis. You think you're doing things 'right', getting confused as all hell about the fact that things aren't going 'right' and you think you're working from the 'right' script. Then all of a sudden, the diagnosis comes along and in effect someone is saying to you, 'ok remember that script you've been working from your whole life? Well it turns out we've given you the wrong one and actually THIS is what you need to be looking at. So start from scratch, literally from day 1.' I don't think it's too extreme to say that it's very much like a rebirth in many respects. If that was all it was, I think many of us would probably be ok. We'd learn the new habits and just get on with it. But the big issue is (and always will be) the trauma attached to not being diagnosed. That time of not fitting and not knowing why, and all the things we do and have done which are very much influenced by the condition. I mentioned it vagueandrandom but I do firmly believe that the term PTSD is applicable here. And we need to start considering the 'recovery and moving on' phase with that as part of it. There's an element of self forgiveness that needs to occur, a letting go of the past which has to happen for us to be able to truly move on. An acceptance of the new rules which can't happen until we we acknowledge what has gone before. It's only when we get to that point that we start to see the possibilities and can just get on with life. Even then, it's not exactly easy. But at least the baggage isn't weighing us down. Easier said than done I know. Oh my god do i know! We are like marmite, love us or hate us. We're never going to be for everyone, but for those that we are for, we really are THAT good. And me? Positive? You must have me mixed up with some other bloke I thought that dx would 'fix' things, that I'd found help for all of my past difficulties . . but the ignorance and stigma I encountered and my difficulties in trying to be taken seriously by the medical profession and my mum refusing to talk about it . . .it's really knocked me back. I accepted it pretty quickly, but the more I read, experience, analysed and the more self-aware I become I find that the way I am is even more different than I originally thought . . I like your script analogy. When the only reference point you have for thought processing is your own mind and it's 'normal' for you it comes as quite a shock to find out that you're experiencing things in a radically different way from the majority. . it takes some adjustment. . and I'm still adjusting . . I like being me most of the time. . I don't like the loneliness and anxiety (I only discovered my constant state of anxiety recently when trying elvanse and all of a sudden it was gone) and I quite like being excitable and a bit weird . . I don't know where I'm going with this so I'll stop and get something to eat. . I might be back later . . Save
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Post by marionk on Dec 17, 2016 14:56:51 GMT
I think one of the biggest things for me has been realising that the 'mistakes' that I've made haven't actually all been mistakes at all. They've been me rebelling against the structures and pre-existing systems that are in place that I blatantly don't fit within. Removing myself from a lot of those constraints has actually helped immensely. Equally, I'm now much more aware that my discomfort in certain scenarios is due to the fact that my condition isn't being sated or used constructively. Whether ort not that may help you on the job front or not I don't know. But if you're aware of what your condition 'needs' to be nourished, perhaps it might be more possible for you to create a life whereby work perhaps isn't the most satisfactory, but your ADHD needs are being met elsewhere. Be that via relationships with likeminded folk, indulging your creative side more regularly, or anything else that you might find stimulating. Don't get me wrong, I would absolutely LOVE for the world to exist in such a way as to give folk like us space to just be, but I think we need to accept that world doesn't exist at the moment. It might have done a thousand years ago, but we need to make a space that fits for each of us individually. Or I could just be talking complete nonsense of course (always possible) I have been lucky enough to have two periods in my life where that was the case, the first was early childhood and all through primary school. (I'm not hyperactive type, and the issues I had were dealt with very well.) The second was my early married life when I was living in my husband's country, with lots of his extended family close by. Most of them were absolutely lovely, and the few that weren't, weren't close enough or important enough to be a problem. (eta, It's just most of the developed world that it's really difficult to fit into) Whether or not ADHD is likely to cause a problem is more about social structure, attitudes and expectations and demands than the actual individual. I'd push that date a bit further back than 1000 years in England, (IDK enough about the rest of UK history to put a date elsewhere, but it was certainly pre-Victorian!) Through my interest in ancient and traditional crafts, I kind of fell into 'living history' type re-enactment of the early Anglo-Saxon period because the A-S era is when my preferred crafts were at their peak. The more I learn about this 'migration period' the more I realise that far from being a dark age, it was in fact a golden age! I'd've fitted in perfectly as a highly capable crafter at least, and probably been responsible for a fair bit of innovation. Appropriateness of work and the work environment are also key. As long as work is absorbing/rewarding enough and of a sufficient level that punctuality etc are not an issue, then many ADHDers can sail through life not even realising they have it. There is also the financial aspect to consider, in that if there is sufficient income and or capital that there is never any concern over paying bills or the effects of a rash purchase, or how to save enough money to retire on when the time comes, then there is very little stress or preoccupation so we make fewer social blunders for example, and can much more easily follow our interests and find our niche, and generally sail through life. Sadly most of us are nowhere near so lucky. Going back to your first post, over the years I have done a lot of self analysing, starting perhaps with asking myself why I found it so incredibly hard to do homework, and realising that boredom was a key issue, leading me to realise that in order to 'get on' in life, I would need to follow my interests. (Even then, though, I realised that none of my interests would be financially reliable enough to make a career out of, or else I needed to be more capable at than was required, to get employment even. (e.g. archaeology and crafts for the former and geology for the latter. ) Over the years, I have given a lot of thought to various problems that have arisen, and attempted to find ways around them, long before I realised I am ADHD. What that realisation/self dx has done (official dx is a mere technicality by comparison) is make me realise that all my problems over the years (not counting normal medical things like injuries and flu etc.) were due to my being ADHD. So far though, apart from being able to analyse my problems more accurately, e.g. boredom is actually needing to do something more interesting to stimulate more dopamine release because I am low in dopamine, it's not really changed anything. Even the medication is only very mildly helpful.
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jonbob
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Post by jonbob on Dec 17, 2016 17:22:35 GMT
marionk Hi there and thanks for replying. Before I start trying to unpack the points you've made, a quick observation. There isn't a single thing that you've said there that I haven't considered myself. I do find it most striking that there is series of unconnected minds out there that are facing problems within the same areas of their life and are all coming to remarkably similar conclusions. It makes perfect sense as to why that would be the case, but given that we're often more likely to be isolated from one another, it's still revelatory when you see it in action! I do agree on your point that social and environmental factors play a big part in ones own challenges when it comes to managing the condition. Though I don't have children currently, I've put a great deal of thought into what I believe would be a beneficial environment for a child with ADHD, so that they might flourish and be allowed to leverage their abilities effectively. I won't bore you with the details here, because you've no doubt got a fairly good idea of what that might be, but it bodes well for the future. 2nd Gen ADHD kids are much more likely to benefit from the diagnosis their parents received than the parents did themselves. As for the 'when' of ADHD being most socially 'useful'. Well it's a tough one really, I'm a firm believer in the condition being an atavistic throwback, so there's the whole hunter-gatherer thing. Then there are the periods of diaspora and human expansion which have gone on over the years. This is a pet theory of mine, but if ADHD diagnosis are genuinely higher in the US, if one considers a genetic element then perhaps it's not surprising as to why that might be the case. Let's face, when the early settlers to the US were being called for, who would be the most likely to go? Probably those who are more likely to entertain risk and uncertainty. Those stimulated by the new, with perhaps a reckless slant to their personality. You can of course see where I'm going with this. Then there are slightly more unusual elements to consider. Even more out of the box, but it's where we live so I'm fine with talking about it. I don't know about you, but speaking personally, anger is something which, I don't necessarily have a problem with, but when I generally do get angry, 'incandescent' would be an understatement. It's physical, to a degree which is almost blinding. But there are other physical effects, adrenaline levels go through the roof, and 'fight or flight' kicks in to an extraordinarily high degree. Now you might wondering where I might be going with this, but again there are historical examples of this type of person existing. I don't know how you are on your Scandinavian history, but have a look at the Norse berserkers. Read a description of how they behave and see if any of that perhaps strikes a chord. Though there are arguments to suggest that these guys were all high as kites when they went into battle, there is potentially a school of thought to suggest that they may well of had something like ADHD. This is strengthened by the fact that there were actually families of these guys. Father and son, brothers and sisters. So that could be the genetic element at play I did warn you it was an off the wall concept, I really should stop reading weird stuff. We seem to be most effective in scenarios where either leverage our creativity (music and photography for me) or where our ability to manage significant crisis comes into play. Kipling springs to mind here: 'if you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs'. Just been thinking about this, and I think it has a lot to do with the fact that our dopamine levels have a much lower starting point than average jo/joanne. So we can handle more stress before we start running round like headless chickens. So when things hit the fan, we tend to be much further away from the point of adrenaline actually impeding performance, which means we can still think and function under pressure that might well be too much for a neurotypical person.
Self awareness is vital for us, and you're right, dx is more a rubber stamping exercise, but seeking that dx will often mean that an individual has to become significantly knowledgable on why they think they have the 'A's and D's' in the first place. So that self-evaluation is turned into a priority. I don't know about you, but when I went to ask to be referred, the poor GP had zero chance of trying to say no, and that was based on the sheer volume and detail of prep I threw at him. That's not to say that the evaluation stops at that point, as you can see from the absurdities above, the thought processes are still ongoing. You'll have to let me know what you think abut what I've said though. Feel free to agree, inquire or pull apart as required.
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Post by marionk on Dec 17, 2016 20:32:05 GMT
jonbob As you mention genetics, you might be interested in research into the effects of stress on the genes. I can't remember the proper terms for what happens, but it happens when the ovaries or testes are developing, so stress on adolescent males, and stress on mothers carrying a female foetus affects subsequent offspring. ADHD as one of those effects makes sense in terms of a 'tribe' needing to adapt to the changes causing the stress, e.g. climate change. A tribe entirely made of NT's would not be able to think of the necessary changes to survive. Once the solution to the crisis has been found, whether developing new crops better suited to the new climate, developing a new technology to make better use of dwindling resources or leading everyone to a new land, the source of stress is banished, and future generations lose the trait. Whether or not berserker (and other similar cults) levels of dissociation are increased by drug use or not, I think it is possible that it is another stress induced genetic variation, along with psycho/sociopathy. The capability for extraordinary levels of violence would be useful in times of conflict. . . While such a trait might appear along with ADHD, I don't think it is necessarily part of ADHD. I'm not so sure about your 'low dopamine keeping us calm under stress' theory. There is a lot of evidence to show that we are very badly affected by stress e.g. we are more prone to PTSD. In the moment though, our brains work super hard to find a solution, and because our brains make more random connections we often actually DO come up with a solution! Even as the moment of crisis unfolds, we are pretty sure we will think of a way out, and it is that that keeps us calm. I think we are low in dopamine because we use it up too fast with our brains working all over all the time instead of just one or two parts at a time. I've just noticed that my last post crossed with a lot of other posts, so my next post is likely to take even longer than this one!
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Post by marionk on Dec 17, 2016 20:48:37 GMT
Heh, just a quick post to say I've remembered the name of the A-S equivalent of berzerkers, 'wulfingas'.
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