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Post by marionk on Apr 5, 2017 9:05:34 GMT
Having discovered that I have been suffering from protein deficiency for years without realising I wasn't eating enough protein, and feeling so much better now, I wonder how much protein we (ADHDers) need. I suspect that it's more than NT's. As my anxiety, lack of energy, brain fog and depression have faded, and also, though not to the same degree, the desire to procrastinate, I also wonder if other ADHDers fatigue, anxiety, and pessimism and other negative feelings are also due to not consuming enough protein. I'd like to put this as a poll, but there are too many variables to put even approximate consumption of various foods into one, and asking folks to work out their actual protein intake in grams is imho asking too much. So I will just ask, how much high protein food (nuts in any form, meat(inc. liver), cheese, eggs or fish) do you eat in each meal or if you eat a lot of prepared or processed food, (sausages, pate, ready meals, how much do you eat and how much protein does it say on the packet? Also, how many meals a day do you eat with a high protein component, and do you eat high protein snacks between meals? Also, because there are other factors influencing how much protein we need, how much do you weigh, and are you a keen excerciser? And, last but not least, how do you feel most of the time? TIA for any replies, and thanks for reading this far!
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keefy
Member's not posted much yet
Posts: 25
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Post by keefy on Apr 5, 2017 9:22:13 GMT
Interesting. I noticed lately that having started going to the gym I have upped my protein intake. The days I go the gym I tend to make sure I include a lot of protein in my diet and have a protein shake once I get home from the gym. What I have noticed is that the next day I get up with a much clearer head and am a lot more in the 'now'. Obviously I am not diagnosed ADHD so take what I say with a pinch of salt but this is an interesting question and one that I will be following as I think it's something I would consider trying to see if it helps me with my lack of attention.
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Post by marionk on Apr 5, 2017 10:08:46 GMT
Interesting twist to the benefits of exercise!
Do you know how much protein you consume on either normal or exercise days?
I haven't noticed any improvement to attention, and don't really expect any, as this for me at least seems to be more to do with brain structure. I am hoping though, that continued/prolonged adequate protein consumption may help building the deficient parts of my brain (to do with attention and memory). I'm sure that I wasn't deficient as a child though, so I'm not sure it can help, but perhaps I didn't really need those aspects of brain function then, and needing/practicing/trying to use them now, and for the first time with adequate protein intake, maybe they will develop.
Maybe this is how some ADHDers improve in early adulthood? (I moved to a completely different culture at that time, and did not need the skills that are so vital here, regardless of protein intake!)
Protein deficiency is not (yet?) linked to ADHD although I suspect that it is more likely in ADHDers because (I suspect) we need more protein (than NTs), due to our high usage of dopamine.
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goldfish
Member's not posted much yet
Posts: 41
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Post by goldfish on Apr 5, 2017 15:33:13 GMT
Having discovered that I have been suffering from protein deficiency for years without realising I wasn't eating enough protein, and feeling so much better now, I wonder how much protein we (ADHDers) need. I suspect that it's more than NT's. As my anxiety, lack of energy, brain fog and depression have faded, and also, though not to the same degree, the desire to procrastinate, I also wonder if other ADHDers fatigue, anxiety, and pessimism and other negative feelings are also due to not consuming enough protein. I'd like to put this as a poll, but there are too many variables to put even approximate consumption of various foods into one, and asking folks to work out their actual protein intake in grams is imho asking too much. So I will just ask, how much high protein food (nuts in any form, meat(inc. liver), cheese, eggs or fish) do you eat in each meal or if you eat a lot of prepared or processed food, (sausages, pate, ready meals, how much do you eat and how much protein does it say on the packet? Also, how many meals a day do you eat with a high protein component, and do you eat high protein snacks between meals? Also, because there are other factors influencing how much protein we need, how much do you weigh, and are you a keen excerciser? And, last but not least, how do you feel most of the time? TIA for any replies, and thanks for reading this far! Saw your post about this in a different thread and this is a big deal if it's true!! I've been taking methylphenidate for 2/3 months, in the last month or so I've been finding it less effective, and been feeling quite foggy... But in the last month I've also been going to the gym much less (usually try to go 2-3 times a week, now down to once every 2 weeks max) because I've got exams coming up... I've always noticed a small link between how much I go to the gym, and my ability to concentrate; but I've realised it might be more to do with my protein intake rather than the exercise! I have a whey protein shake (30-60 grams of protein) after every gym session, but generally don't use any if I'm not going to the gym. Also, I had relatively few symptoms in childhood compared to most people, and this could maybe be explained by the fact that I ate meat until the age of 9/10, so probably didn't get enough protein after that point. Since you asked for stats: - Fairly low-protein diet in general (v. roughly 40 grams/day) unless I supplement with whey protein (additional ~50 grams) - Weigh 80kg, male - Do moderate strength training a few times a week - 32mg concerta XL + 10mg in the evenings Really interesting idea and I'm very glad I've found this post!
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keefy
Member's not posted much yet
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Post by keefy on Apr 5, 2017 21:47:09 GMT
Today I have had 360 grams of steak and a 40 gram protein shake after the gym. I've read that protein breaks down into amino acids which the brain can convert into dopamine which activates reward and motivation pathways in the brain. These are under stimulated in ADHD.
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goldfish
Member's not posted much yet
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Post by goldfish on Apr 5, 2017 23:43:45 GMT
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Post by marionk on Apr 6, 2017 9:21:03 GMT
keefy Thanks for the additional info. Unless you're over 20 stone, that's plenty of protein! I presume that's only on gym days? Amino acids are used for a lot more neurotransmitters than dopamine, and even dopamine does more than just activate reward and motivation pathways, neurotransmitters are used in a lot more places and in greater quantities than in the brain, and amino acids are used for a lot more things than neurotransmitters, making protein utterly vital to all sorts of things! Thanks for the info goldfish Your intake on non gym days is well below normal recommendations, and only a little above on gym days, and bearing in mind, it is also recommended to eat more protein when exercising or body building, your experience falls within normal expectations, suggesting that we don't need to eat more than the general recommendations. I still suspect that we need more than NT's but it's not going to be easy to find out what the tipping point is for non- ADHDers. I actually don't like that article. In a nutshell, it completely ignores the fact that protein deficiency will affect anyone, and that protein deficiency and ADHD have a lot of symptoms in common. In my first post here, the symptoms I mention are non ADHD symptoms, even procrastination isn't directly caused by ADHD. It's only since I increased my protein intake that I realised how separate they actually are. I am still just as scatterbrained and forgetful as ever, with terrible judgement of the passage of time, lousy memory for faces (and names!) and a whole bunch of other things, and it only intermittently helps with my sleep problems too. The number of people on here complaining of what I now realise are general protein deficiency symptoms, suggests to me, that a lot ADHDders are would benefit by addressing their protein intake, and makes me wonder if ADHDers are more vulnerable to protein deficiency. (And how much is dopamine deficiency confused with general protein deficiency, but I'll look into that some other time.) I'm not too keen on processed supplements, I like to eat as natural as possible (not raw though!), but that does sound like it's pretty good stuff, and it's low calorie and economic too! Let me know how you get on with it.
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Post by Fleecemaster on Apr 6, 2017 23:59:13 GMT
The ideal is around at least 1g of protein per kg of bodyweight each day (1.5g per kg if you work out, no more than 2g per kg absolute), but I am often way under this because my depression makes it hard to prepare meals. It's hard to tell if I'm eating badly because I feel low, or if I feel low because I'm eating badly... I try and supplement by eating nuts, almonds are the best but I usually go with peanuts since they are cheaper!
I've only done this for physical health, but perhaps I will renew my efforts if it's shown to help mentally too!
Good sources: Beans, meat (especially fish), nuts, lentils, chickpeas, oats (porridge), milk, eggs, seeds. (Look for "protein per 100g", anything about 8g and up is good, make sure to measure that against "calories per 100g" so you don't go over your daily calorie intake! Avoid sugar like it wants to kill you (it does) and make sure to pick up enough fibre (vegtables generally provide that). Your remaining calories can be picked up with rice and potatoes!)
Always try and get as much variety as possible to get as many of the different amino acids (as goldfish mentioned)
Eating protein helps suppress hunger too so will help fight snacking!
(I was going to make a short post but it seems I can't help but give more information! If you maybe want me to post some of my easy recipies then I can!)
I think you've made a change to your captcha, I can no longer post from my phone
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Post by fleecemaster on Apr 7, 2017 0:08:09 GMT
Ok, I think you've changed something on your website, I can't even post anymore, and my nice post about good dieting is lost to the aether. I give up.
Registering took about 3 years and I honest can't believe it forced me to pick a gender. This is 2017 for goodness sake.
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Post by marionk on Apr 7, 2017 8:31:15 GMT
Ok, I think you've changed something on your website, I can't even post anymore, and my nice post about good dieting is lost to the aether. I give up. Registering took about 3 years and I honest can't believe it forced me to pick a gender. This is 2017 for goodness sake. Don't give up! That's a brilliant post on dietary requirements v nice and succinctly done too. First posts are often not visible on both sites at first, but I think it is visible already. Unless you did another one than the two above.
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alien
Member's posted somewhat
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Post by alien on Apr 17, 2017 13:04:54 GMT
I eat plenty of protein, but lots of carbs too. And chocolate. Not tea or coffee but much more chocolate than most. The right amount of chocolate is good; beneficial, in terms of mood, but too much or too cheap brings me down. My outlook is generally optimistic leavened with cynicism. I am not a pessimist. I find food helps lift my mood if I am tired too. Have noticed impact of food more since being back in office life over the last six months or so. Maybe because I have less healthy food to graze on. Making conscious effort to have nuts and fruit, etc to hand. Got into habit of Ready Brek and honey rather than more processed sugary cereal at least half the week too. All seems to help. Has to become habitual though - the cooking and washing up isnmore demanding, but have made it part of the ritual so I quite enjoy on the less stressful school days.
My partner (not ADHD) has much less protein and experiences lower mood than me. Interesting.
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Post by marionk on Apr 21, 2017 5:19:36 GMT
Today I have had 360 grams of steak and a 40 gram protein shake after the gym. I've read that protein breaks down into amino acids which the brain can convert into dopamine which activates reward and motivation pathways in the brain. These are under stimulated in ADHD. It's not about activation or stimulation, it's simply about having everything necessary for the brain (and all nerves) to work at all. I've read something like 'dopamine activates the reward pathway' but I think it's ancient. It's certainly putting the cart before the horse.
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Post by marionk on Apr 21, 2017 5:48:19 GMT
I eat plenty of protein, but lots of carbs too. And chocolate. Not tea or coffee but much more chocolate than most. The right amount of chocolate is good; beneficial, in terms of mood, but too much or too cheap brings me down. My outlook is generally optimistic leavened with cynicism. I am not a pessimist. I find food helps lift my mood if I am tired too. Have noticed impact of food more since being back in office life over the last six months or so. Maybe because I have less healthy food to graze on. Making conscious effort to have nuts and fruit, etc to hand. Got into habit of Ready Brek and honey rather than more processed sugary cereal at least half the week too. All seems to help. Has to become habitual though - the cooking and washing up isnmore demanding, but have made it part of the ritual so I quite enjoy on the less stressful school days. My partner (not ADHD) has much less protein and experiences lower mood than me. Interesting. Interesting that you mention pessimism and optimism, as I find that that is the most immediately noticeable change when I've not eaten enough protein and when I've gone back to deliberately eating more. The act of eating lifts mood generally in several ways. Best known is that it activates the reward pathways (assuming you have enough dopamine!) Less well known but also important is that eating carbohydrate causes insulin to be released, to take the surplus glucose into cells. Insulin also takes a lot of amino acids into the cells, but it leaves tryptophan. Tryptophan is usually left out at the blood brain barrier, as the other amino acids are preferentially taken up. Insulin effectively 'removes the competition' for the blood brain transporters, so tryptophan is absorbed into the brain where it is then converted into serotonin, making us brighter, more awake. And last but not least, you are right about making it habitual! It is all too easy to eat a pizza just because it's easy, but habit can make it just as easy to eat properly. It takes a bit more effort to get started, but once it's ingrained, it's automatic.
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Post by danherts on May 16, 2017 7:45:58 GMT
I've started lifting weights again and I'm currently trying to take on board 1g of protein per lb of bodyweight.
I'm not that heavy, but it still means around 4 eggs for breakfast, 2 protein shakes a day, half a chicken for dinner, lots of milk and cheese and it hasn't made any difference at all to how I feel. I've taken L-tyrosine before and that had the same outcome.
Playing devils advocate, if I was deficient in the building blocks of dopamine, how could taking a dopamine releasing agent for years continue to be effective? Surely that shows that my brain is deciding not to make use of the available dopamine for whatever reason.
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Post by marionk on May 16, 2017 9:02:59 GMT
I've started lifting weights again and I'm currently trying to take on board 1g of protein per lb of bodyweight. I'm not that heavy, but it still means around 4 eggs for breakfast, 2 protein shakes a day, half a chicken for dinner, lots of milk and cheese and it hasn't made any difference at all to how I feel. I've taken L-tyrosine before and that had the same outcome. Playing devils advocate, if I was deficient in the building blocks of dopamine, how could taking a dopamine releasing agent for years continue to be effective? Surely that shows that my brain is deciding not to make use of the available dopamine for whatever reason. How much were you eating before you took up lifting weights again? What you are eating now, sounds like it's enough, and if you were eating enough before too, then I wouldn't expect any change in how you feel. How do you feel? Miserable, happy, anxious, chilled? What outcome? No difference? Were you weight lifting then too? As devil's advocate, you have answered your own question. Nicely put too.
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Post by danherts on May 16, 2017 20:53:10 GMT
Before this I was on low carb with a lot of cheat days. Previous to that I was on a ketogenic diet. I lifted weights on low carb but not as much as I was doing a lot of running too.
It's hard to pin anything on being caused by my diet as my mood goes in long cycles which I'm still trying to figure out. I'm not sure if they have a cause or not. At the moment I feel pretty good, I'm at the start of an 'up' phase, however I've just come out of about two weeks of dysthymia and anxiety.
With keto you're supposed to try and limit protein intake (0.6 to 1g per lb) as in the absence of carbs the body will use protein to create glucose via gluconeogenesis which could halt fat burning. I didn't get too obsessed about that but I felt good on that diet, better than ever.
However the diet came about as part of a lengthy (for me) obsession with becoming an ultra runner, and my perception of that diet being so good may have been down to it being a means to that end and feeding my obsession.
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Post by marionk on May 18, 2017 6:47:43 GMT
That's really interesting about the keto diet, especially about gluconeogenesis. Which possibly explains why I'm not losing as much weight as I would expect. Even on the keto diet, it sounds as though you were getting enough protein. I'm struggling to find how much I need to eat, but as far as anxiety and brain fog are concerned, too much is not a problem. It's also no longer difficult to eat 82g a day, since finding out about protein shakes! I would really like to lose weight though! Carbohydrates do seem to be a big no-no. I've slipped from last week-end onwards, and have put the few pounds that I had lost back on. I would love to find a simple plan that I could stick to without getting bored, but right now, I don't even know how much of the main nutrient groups I should be eating. I'm already halfway set up to keep tabs on my consumption though, with my protein and calories spreadsheet. It should be easy enough to add more elements to it. /me goes away to look into ketogenesis.
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Post by marionk on May 23, 2017 16:26:46 GMT
Saw your post about this in a different thread and this is a big deal if it's true!! . . . Really interesting idea and I'm very glad I've found this post! I can't claim 'protein deficiency' as my discovery. It's old hat in the US. Totally mainstream, FDA approved and all. So much so that until a few hours ago, I thought the 0.8 to 1g recommendation was universal, I've seen it stated on so many different sites. But looking specifically on official UK sites, (NHS and NICE only) I find the recommendation is only 0.75g per kg, and no mention of the fact that we need protein for amino acids for neurotransmitters, nor of the consequences of not eating enough*. It's pretty basic really, obvious even, and I am shocked that we are so far behind the US. Now more than ever I realise I am right to be shouting this from the rooftops. It's not just for ADHDers that it's important, so I might move to campaigning to the medical authorities to get it recognised properly over here, but it's ADHDers I care about the most, because they are my tribe, and because I see them suffering from it so very often on here. *Not counting effects on muscles, or Kwashiorkor, which is what happens when you get bu**er all protein at all.
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Lame44
Member posts quite a bit
Posts: 207
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Post by Lame44 on Jun 30, 2017 15:27:38 GMT
Not exactly a deficiency here but I do have to eat A LOT of protein each day. Well no, I am supposed to eat a lot of protein a day because the doctors eventually listened to me about my arms swelling up when I exercise and decided to do a blood test and they found my CK levels were over 9 thousand and I got Rhabdomyolysis. I now see a specialist team in Manchester who are convinced I have a Glycogen Storage Disease and I've had some tests and am waiting for results...but I just wondered if anyone had any idea's of good sources of protein without any carbs? I need to avoid most carbs and have 460 g of protein a day but it's so hard finding it without any carbs in. Sorry to hijack the thread btw.
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Post by marionk on Jul 1, 2017 18:33:06 GMT
OMG that's scary. Can you actually physically eat that much protein in a day? Maybe you really mean 460g protein rich food?? It sounds like eggs are your best friend, not only do they have lots of protein and almost no carbs, but they also have a lot of stuff that is brilliant for cells, membranes especially. Beans are good too, for both protein and lipids/lecithin etc., but yes they have a fair amount of carbs. Are the docs sure you should be cutting out carbs? Polysaccharides are a very important part of cell membranes, and are made from starch.
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goldfish
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Post by goldfish on Jul 1, 2017 23:28:27 GMT
460g seems like a lot (77 eggs a day?!) But if you're eating minimal carbs I guess it makes sense
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2017 12:51:09 GMT
A theory I came up with once (which I'm sure is full of holes) is that the brain must compete with the thyroid for tyrosine. I believe the brain almost always wins a showdown but guess which organ kinda sits at 'the front gate' of the brain? The thyroid doesn't need to 'win'. It just hijacks the transport en route to the brain, potentially. My waking temperature, every morning without fail, is 36.6C which is what put me onto the thyroid shenanigans. Most others in my family are 37.5C as measured by the same device at the same time. I believe the vasodilation that exercise brings forces nutrients into places they normally cannot get to, in some of us, which may explain the 'super fresh' feeling some of us experience the morning after the gym. Prolly all coincidental and just another subject I've chased (and mostly forgotten) to amuse myself for 5 minutes
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