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Post by jp on Jan 2, 2019 9:23:11 GMT
Thinking aloud...
ADHD requires significant negative life impact for diagnosis.
What do we call people with the same brain but who don’t experience significant negative impact?
Most of these will be undiagnosed (of course!!!) so it’s even more invisible than the deficit-disorder type.
We could learn a lot by looking at these folks. But that’ll be hard since psychiatry won’t be able to make the connection.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2019 18:54:33 GMT
Well connected or well supported.
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Post by speedy1 on Jan 5, 2019 20:37:41 GMT
I don't know about everyone else but when I was first learning about adhd I searched the Web for inspirational figures with adhd I found Richard Branson but he's not officially diagnosed I asked on here if anyone knew if he was on meds or if anyone knew any more details Anyway murtster has worked with him & gave me some interesting facts. That's why I use this site to get tips & advice from people that live it Just wish there were more posts about lived experience rather than about meds!
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Post by jp on Jan 6, 2019 22:06:25 GMT
Boost - thanks :-)
Can we add:
Well fed/ exercised? Well balanced? Well located? Well...
Speedy1 - I did wonder about Richard Branson. He’s cant be ADHD - according to the diagnostic criteria - because he doesn’t have severe negative life impacts. Or maybe he does? Career seems fine. Social life too. Maybe his personal life is a total disaster?
If someone is taking meds and they are working such that there are no longer severe negative life impacts - are they still ADHD? I think the psychiatrist would say yes.
What about someone who would be ADHD were it not for the other things they’ve got going - like support, learned strategies, the miracle adhd diet, the jungle abode...?
People can grow out of it - it seems. But it’s a neuro developmental condition. Do you shouldn’t be able to! These people need studying!!!! Were they misdiagnosed? Did their brain change? (How?!) Or did they just find the right job/ diet/ support/ cbt technique/ guru/ etc?
This feels important!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2019 2:31:31 GMT
Does any member of this forum, diagnosed or not, believe you can grow out of ADHD?
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Post by vagueandrandom on Jan 7, 2019 10:15:40 GMT
I don’t think you can grow out of ADHD, but you can learn to cope with it better.
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Post by JP grrr... on Jan 7, 2019 11:25:19 GMT
I don’t know know if I believe it either!
But I thought that was the professional view?
I.e. If the impacts are not severe then you don’t have ADHD, you might have Attention/ Hyperactivity something or other...
But I also understand that professionals don’t understand how people learn to cope / grow out out it.
And I’m trying to understand.
Whatever the mechanisms - they need elucidating!
AND the diagnostic criteria need changing. Or perhaps the whole psychiatric paradigm is off.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2019 19:15:01 GMT
Impulsivity is probably attenuated by depression and depression is probably inevitable once you hit a certain age undiagnosed and give up all hope of trying to be a better version of yourself?
In my mind, this is the only version of 'we grow out of it' that seems likely to me.
Some people will say, 'who cares what the exact reason is, they're way less impulsive!'
I'm guessing people who are permanently depressed are probably not that fun to be around? I'm guessing they're not great for the economy either?
Sounds like a lose:lose to me?
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Post by speedy1 on Jan 7, 2019 23:26:50 GMT
I don't believe anyone can just grow out of it!
More likely they completely avoid anything that shows up the traits
For example avoid any job that involves meetings or requires u 2 be organised or on time
For me avoid any job that requires me 2 be confined 2 a computer chair or sit down for any length of time,or do any paperwork!
U only realise ure faults/problems when something changes & ur forced 2 do regular things that u'd normally avoid!
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Post by boxoffrogs on Jan 8, 2019 11:02:30 GMT
The more successful people with ADHD, I believe, figured out early on that they're the square peg and to avoid round holes (and 'round hole' situations/circumstances). Also as Boost has said a good support network/connections would be of tremendous help.
I also think it's probably easier for men with ADHD to be a success than women as they can avoid/delegate social responsibilities more when in hyperfocus.
BOF
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Post by stresshead75 on Jan 9, 2019 5:14:37 GMT
I don’t think you can grow out of ADHD, but you can learn to cope with it better. No I dont think so, infact I think some of my symptoms have gotten worse as I got older. I do believe that you learn better coping skills as you get older.(or not!, sometimes!)
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Post by jp on Jan 14, 2019 19:17:43 GMT
Impulsivity is probably attenuated by depression and depression is probably inevitable once you hit a certain age undiagnosed and give up all hope of trying to be a better version of yourself? In my mind, this is the only version of 'we grow out of it' that seems likely to me. Some people will say, 'who cares what the exact reason is, they're way less impulsive!' I'm guessing people who are permanently depressed are probably not that fun to be around? I'm guessing they're not great for the economy either? Sounds like a lose:lose to me? Depression will attenuate everything! And for sure it’s no fun to be around a depressed person... But are you really saying that the only chance of improvement is depression?! That’s sounds like a depressed thing to say! There are other attenuators for sure? Some of my sypmtoms - hyperactive ones - were masked in my early years because I am a ‘people pleaser’. Very conscious, too conscious, of how I appear to other people. Or maybe it was because I was beaten for leaving my seat in primary school 🤔 Intelligence can mask inattention. Presumably other personality traits can mask executive function challenges? Like having a massive ego? I would argue that impulsivity is a two edged sword. It’s not all bad - and I wouldn’t want to lose mine. It’s the part of me that gets up early to drive for two hours to watch the sunrise over the sea. And the part that dares to act when others seem paralysed. I can deal with rash spending, speaking truth to power, getting lost because I took a wrong turn, taking a gamble on something that doesn’t always turn out well (but sometimes opens new vistas, or is usefully inventive) Do you think any of the CBT or DBT type interventions can help? What about coaching, skills training, forming new habits? Can any of these bring symptoms below threshold levels? Or is it all just pissing in the wind?
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Post by jp on Jan 14, 2019 19:39:22 GMT
I don't believe anyone can just grow out of it! More likely they completely avoid anything that shows up the traits For example avoid any job that involves meetings or requires u 2 be organised or on time For me avoid any job that requires me 2 be confined 2 a computer chair or sit down for any length of time,or do any paperwork! U only realise ure faults/problems when something changes & ur forced 2 do regular things that u'd normally avoid! Perhaps ‘grow out of it’ is the wrong term? Although maybe it’s possible with early intervention while the brain is still ‘plastic’? There seems to be several kinds of adhd. It really isn’t clear yet if we have fewer dopamine producing cells, or they produce insufficient dopamine, or the dopamine is removed too fast, or it’s not regulated in the same way as with NTs. It feels like the latter is true since anecdotally it seems hyperfocus is a thing. But for sure ADHD, as a disorder, is highly contextual. As you say given the right employment it may not be a disorder at all. It’s this kind of thing that I’m interested in. To my mind it’s not just the job description, but a whole slew of demands put upon us by a neurotypical society. Which leads to the inevitable question: Are we really disordered or is it society?
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Post by jp on Jan 14, 2019 19:46:39 GMT
The more successful people with ADHD, I believe, figured out early on that they're the square peg and to avoid round holes (and 'round hole' situations/circumstances). Also as Boost has said a good support network/connections would be of tremendous help. I also think it's probably easier for men with ADHD to be a success than women as they can avoid/delegate social responsibilities more when in hyperfocus. BOF Hard to know which successful people might be adhd. It may be that there’s loads of people with similar brains but they have ‘figured out’ how to avoid things they are no good at - and how to pay/ persuade other people to do those things? So the diagnosed folk are the ones who haven’t figured out how to adapt? Or who cannot adapt?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2019 22:34:08 GMT
Nope, I didn't mean to suggest attenuation is exclusive to depression, sorry. I think in that particular instance I was specifically thinking about people who've had trouble getting an accurate diagnosis because whoever they spoke to couldn't see past the veneer of depression that ADHD can cause. I don't appear to have written any of this in my reply. Oops I also agree with your job thing. There must be a specific role out there for all of us where the shit parts of ADHD are relegated from the 80% to the 20%? One thing I'm certain of though, at least for my life to date and my observations of my Dad. We do not grow out of ADHD.
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Post by jp on Jan 18, 2019 15:52:07 GMT
So... ‘a job’
What is this thing really, in terms of being adhd?
Something like:
‘a way to enhance freedom potential’?’
There’s other needs too like fulfilment, self respect...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2019 20:09:47 GMT
What question are you trying to answer with this thread?
Is it this:
Do you believe you've found one?
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Post by boxoffrogs on Jan 20, 2019 16:10:17 GMT
The more successful people with ADHD, I believe, figured out early on that they're the square peg and to avoid round holes (and 'round hole' situations/circumstances). Also as Boost has said a good support network/connections would be of tremendous help. I also think it's probably easier for men with ADHD to be a success than women as they can avoid/delegate social responsibilities more when in hyperfocus. BOF Hard to know which successful people might be adhd. It may be that there’s loads of people with similar brains but they have ‘figured out’ how to avoid things they are no good at - and how to pay/ persuade other people to do those things? So the diagnosed folk are the ones who haven’t figured out how to adapt? Or who cannot adapt? I think I mean that the more successful people know their strengths and make peace with their weaknesses rather than try to fight them.
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faganj
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Post by faganj on Jan 22, 2019 17:16:43 GMT
Hallowell and Ratey's next book is supposed to be about the wider traits of ADHD - they're calling it VAST - Variable Attention Stimulus Trait. Presumably looking at what the OP was asking about.
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reg
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Post by reg on Jan 22, 2019 22:36:59 GMT
Hard to know which successful people might be adhd. It may be that there’s loads of people with similar brains but they have ‘figured out’ how to avoid things they are no good at - and how to pay/ persuade other people to do those things? So the diagnosed folk are the ones who haven’t figured out how to adapt? Or who cannot adapt? I think I mean that the more successful people know their strengths and make peace with their weaknesses rather than try to fight them. One of my biggest weaknesses throughout most of my life had been listening. About a decade ago on a day when i was bored, I began translating what people said in my head into a second language and realised that i was absorbing an above average amount of information. Languages have always been a hobby of mine and i made something i struggled to find interesting into something enjoyable. This started years prior to being diagnosed with ADHD. After diagnosis, i realised that gamification was a tool that worked for me.
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