|
Post by dizzydumpling on Aug 21, 2011 16:30:05 GMT
Following on from Andy's comments in the hyperfocus thread....and various other threads that have cropped up now and again re the links between the two, I've found an interesting article on Wiley Interscience - Reference: Geurts, H. M., Verte, S., Oosterlan, J., Roeyers, H., Sergeant, J.A. (2004) “How specific are executive functioning deficits in attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and autism?” Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry, 45; 4, 836–854 Basically, their comprehensive study (of school age children, not adults) which used a battery of tests aimed at measuring various aspects of executive functioning (EF), found that children with both ADHD and high functioning autism (HFA) experienced marked EF difficulties when compared with the NT control group. There were some interesting bits about Russel Barkley's theory that children with ADHD have difficulty in all domains of EF as a result of a primary inhibition deficit, and that this deficit is unique to ADHD. However, Geurts et al's study concluded that kids with HFA also showed similar deficits in inhibition, but that some other effects on EF varied between the 2 groups. In brief, the results of this study indicated that the HFA kids had difficulties in inhibiting a prepotent response and an ongoing response, planning, cognitive flexibility and verbal fluency - but contrary to predictions did not show problems with working memory tasks - they were in line with the NTs for working memory. The only measures of EF that significantly differed between the ADHD sample and the HFA sample were that the HFA group showed more difficulty with cognitive flexibility and planning tasks. Other than that they were hard to differentiate. Interestingly, 22 kids diagnosed with ADHD were screened out of this study (1/3 of the original ADHD sample) because they showed characteristics of the autistic triad of impairments. The authors also point out that children with PDD (pervasive development disorders - which encompass autistic spectrum disorders) could not be differentiated from children with ADHD on hyperactivity and behavioural rating scales. Therefore they argue it is possible that children with a PDD may be receiving incorrect diagnoses of ADHD, but they acknowledge that they may also be comorbid conditions. (Funnily enough re the 'hyperfocus' thread, this article does briefly mention perseveration - but in relation to the lack of cognitive flexibility in ASD - not in relation to ADHD ;D! For me, I'm now more inclined than I was before to see them as being on the same spectrum......but then I'll probably read something tomorrow that'll change my mind again (Fickle is my middle name....well one of them anyway! ) Anyway, make of it all what you will....just thought it might be quite interesting to some of you Ps Evvy - am very aware of the number of acronyms - sorry!
|
|
|
Post by Massg on Aug 22, 2011 0:45:01 GMT
I'm going to stick to the personal here. The two diagnosis I've been kicked between by psychiatrists since I was very young are ADHD and aspergers.
I recently restarted treatment for ADHD after avoiding such people for a long time. The psychiatrist was pretty clear that he was willing to try ADHD medication because 'your notes say it worked in the past', but from speaking to me felt asbergers was a better explanation for my problems.
A few weeks later I cam back, medicated, and at the end of the session he said something like 'For what ever reason, the way you are speaking and acting now is pretty normal. The signs that made me think you had aspergers before are gone'.
I found that interesting. I think the signs he was talking about were some strange ways of speaking that came from being very nervous, along with a problem staying on track in conversations. I think the meds help me be less nervous and stay on track.
The other asbergers symptoms are constrained, focused interests. Sometimes, when I'm what you might call a hyper focus mood, I do stuff that most people don't. For instance this evening, I got very hyper focused, collected statistics, and made graphs to get an insight into some sociological problem from a news article. This doesn't seem like asbergers to me, because I normally don't have any interest in the topic or make a habit of making graphs. Rather, it's inappropriate focus and use of time (it is, after all, 2am).
To overgeneralise my specific case, it might be that some people have ADHD, but look like they have asbergers because they are nervous after years of getting in trouble for shouting out, and appear to have focused interests because they do interesting things when they aught to be doing urgent things.
Maybe other readers have seen something similar?
|
|
|
Post by phil on Aug 22, 2011 10:12:35 GMT
dizzy. thats one of the points i was making that people class things as things! so this hypofocus in ADHD is such a gift that instead of going what you are supposed to be doing your fixated on some thing else- ADHD'ers -would like to call it hypofocus ;D Rusty B- would like to call it perseveration ;D the average person on the street- would like to call this being a lazy f***er ;D i can agree with rusty B that this zone of auto pilot inattention is no gift! but as we can't conduct our own study into this so he knows more than we do into regions of the brain. again rusty b say's its a type of perseveration so unless we all had a big thick book on every type and not just go off a you tube clip i find it hard to watch Americans for starters ;D hey guy's did you watch the super bowl last night! thats all i really picked up and can't get it from my head viewing aspects of ADHD is like viewing christmas some view it as JC's birthday ;D some view it as a day of the where you can make the lil en's happy and get pi**ed and over indulge in grub! ;D some view it as a pyramid scheme! where the media plays adverts for the latest toys ;D sorry i'm not wearing my tin foil hat today and i could really do with a leek don't jump on the fact of perseveration but explain how this version of hypofocus in the ADHD relm is a gift to you? -
|
|
|
Post by phil on Aug 22, 2011 10:24:49 GMT
another term i have hear'd banded about is the hyperfocused machine gun for "impulsiveness" it's like chucking a diffrent label on things and makes things more confusing
|
|
|
Post by andy12345 on Aug 22, 2011 16:06:49 GMT
Dizzydumpling! Thanks for noticing, thanks for researching, thanks for interpreting and thanks for posting that article into a new and therefore fresh, thread. I know how difficult it is to achieve those last 4... But... Now, I have to formulate a reply arrrrrrrrghhhh. The most significant section for me is this... Firstly, my adhd consultation at the maudsley, mostly due to my memory, had an outcome suggested that I go for an ASD consultation, as I had already scored enough marks on ASD screening questionnaires. I can do that at any time, except they'll be a waiting list, unless I go private. Therefore, I'm already 90% autistic spectrum disordered. Also,in line with my approximate 100 NT and approx 100 scores on the ASD test that we all did a while back, I also found that PDD-nos fits me quite well. Also, I did not get the adhd inattentive diagnosis due to not remembering enough examples and I have not revisted my 6 page document properly to add tons of examples.. I am quite near to getting an autism and or adhd diagnosis (DSM 5 is heading to require less markers than dsm 4 to get an adhd diagnosis btw...Is that addressing a deficit in ADHD diagnoses or is it financially motivated?) One thing is certain, if I don't eventually get adhd, I will certainly get ASD, PDD-nos makes sense. Trouble is, I don't really care to deal with this pressing matter. pffft www.nhs.uk/conditions/autistic-spectrum-disorder/Pages/Introduction.aspx==================================================== MASSG, Hello and your quote below is very interesting to me with reference to the above... I think my biggest crime to myself is not even being able to try an ADD friendly medication. Also, it's quite easy to tell a medicated person... the seem more concise in posts without trying, unless you drafted it all 10 x before posting =============================================== (notices Phil and tries to hide but can't evade) You do have a handy habit of clarifying stances' in a simple manner. Rusty B= (lets just clarify it's Russell Barkley Is very well known and has numerous speeches - everywhere. I quote a mere sentence... "hyperfocus term conflict" Last second merchant /intention deficit disorder motivation deficit disorder/instinct difference compared to most animals Anyway, moving on and I think that's all for the moment...thinking hurts..
|
|
|
Post by dizzydumpling on Aug 23, 2011 21:32:01 GMT
@ Massg: Thanks for that - it's interesting that the doctor seemed to think the meds had cleared up your aspergers symptoms! Perhaps that might encourage him to think about what that means for other patients too, and think more carefully about the links between the two. I wonder what he meant by the speech thing - could he have meant your speech was pressured/stilted which I believe can go with ADHD or like you said just be down to nerves or anxiety. As for the impromptu sociology project - from what I've read that's sounding a bit ADHD to me! I can't help wondering if this kind of hyperfocus on an impromptu activity, and the kind that lasts longer term - such as with a special interest in autism - could both be down to a similar cognitive process - just that in the case of autism, they're less likely to shift the object of their hyperfocus due to the lack of cognitive flexibility - so ADDers move on to another subject, whilst ASDers get stuck on the same one! Just a thought - might be bollox!? @ Phil: I should have guessed you'd be along to chip in about what hyperfocus is/isn't again You’re like a dog with a bone (btw – have u taken the dog to the vets yet? ) Yes, I can see what you're saying about seeing things from different perspectives. (Worryingly ) I can quite often see the point you're making.... but ....I'm not always sure of its relevance to the topic in question. I'm not having a go - but it feels like you're being a bit obsessional about getting this point across - and god knows I understand obsessional behaviour ;D - but it seems that no one else shares your opinion of what hyperfocus isn’t – so can’t we just agree to disagree – but accept that this is what everyone else is referring to when talking about hyperfocus. E.g. if an American was on here and we were having a conversation about jelly they would have to accept that we were talking about the wobbly stuff that goes with ice cream, and not jam. Whether or not you, Russell Barkley, or anyone else outside of this forum agrees with the terminology, we were all talking about a particular phenomenon using a particular terminology – why can’t you accept that? No-one’s stopping you starting a thread about jam – for those who want to talk about the differences between jelly/jello/jam that might be a good idea, but I’m not talking jam any more on this thread – so there! This thread wasn’t meant to be about hyperfocus at all – just the neurological similarities between ASD and ADHD which I personally found interesting. @ Andy: I’m glad you found it interesting – to be honest it seems from what I’ve been reading, that if you have AD(H)D symptoms & some autistic symptoms but not the full range of really obvious ones, it’s a bit of a toss-up whether you get diagnosed with ASD, ADHD or both depending on the general attitude/interests of the doc. Maybe I’m wrong, but that’s the picture that seems to be emerging – but obviously if you get the ASD dx you don’t get the opportunity of meds – which does feel a bit like being short-changed – and doesn’t really help with those long rambling posts ;D, but I guess if you have social difficulties, at least a positive dx of ASD might help you understand those a bit better Although to be honest it seems that you already have that side of things covered anyway! Oh yeah – and the motivation deficit....definately!
|
|
|
Post by andy12345 on Aug 25, 2011 13:31:33 GMT
I would have answered that dizzy, but my brain is fried from exceeding my quota of posts. I'll just say "what you said " lol
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2011 13:37:28 GMT
i love jelly on my PBnJ. Grape preferably. Jell-o is gross with icecream!!! lol
|
|
|
Post by andy12345 on Aug 25, 2011 13:40:56 GMT
thread is derailed. Did I tell you all that I clipped my fingernails last night?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2011 13:45:41 GMT
thread is derailed. Did I tell you all that I clipped my fingernails last night?
|
|
|
Post by phil on Aug 25, 2011 14:04:44 GMT
andy don't they just wear down on the keyboard lol stick emery boards to the keys lol
|
|
|
Post by redneck on Aug 25, 2011 18:12:33 GMT
I thought this would be really interesting and the first paragraph and a half I could read was. Unfortunately I just can't cope with all that long text and loads of links .. it's a shame really cos I am really interested in this Can any of you just explain to me how you can cope with reading all that text and then reply with something just as long .... Somebody said fried brain .. yep that just about sums it up for me RR
|
|
|
Post by redneck on Aug 25, 2011 18:14:43 GMT
ps my keyboard keys are almost worn out. The L now looks like an i ... the T is just a horizontal line .. the N has almost disappeared .. gotta stop posting things that say LTN then I guess??
RR
|
|
|
Post by andy12345 on Aug 25, 2011 18:14:57 GMT
Redneck, its because most of us skim text and manage to bluff our way into looking like we read more than 20% of it.
I don't know really...
Sometimes, too much text tends to dilute the message.
|
|
|
Post by redneck on Aug 25, 2011 18:20:41 GMT
Agreed. I do skim read but when it's really involved, I get to skim read number 3 and think eh? I wish I was good at bluff haha! RR
|
|
|
Post by redneck on Aug 25, 2011 18:24:17 GMT
Kameel .. were you called Kameleen before, or somthing similar ... RR
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2011 19:01:18 GMT
Kameel .. were you called Kameleen before, or somthing similar ... RR yep
|
|
|
Post by redneck on Aug 25, 2011 19:25:12 GMT
OKAY .. so are talking gender realignment here??? ;D RR
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2011 19:43:49 GMT
OKAY .. so are talking gender realignment here??? ;D RR realignment... nah, my name for my music recording i do is kameel. kameelan is an old screen name i used on AOHell 12yrs ago! I prefer kameel.
|
|
|
Post by redneck on Aug 25, 2011 20:40:53 GMT
Can't we just call ya Steph? Kameel is a bloke's name (from what my friends tell me anyways???) RR
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2011 22:06:02 GMT
@ Andy: I’m glad you found it interesting – to be honest it seems from what I’ve been reading, that if you have AD(H)D symptoms & some autistic symptoms but not the full range of really obvious ones, it’s a bit of a toss-up whether you get diagnosed with ASD, ADHD or both depending on the general attitude/interests of the doc. Maybe I’m wrong, but that’s the picture that seems to be emerging – but obviously if you get the ASD dx you don’t get the opportunity of meds – which does feel a bit like being short-changed – and doesn’t really help with those long rambling posts ;D, but I guess if you have social difficulties, at least a positive dx of ASD might help you understand those a bit better Although to be honest it seems that you already have that side of things covered anyway! Oh yeah – and the motivation deficit....definately! Indeed. I have a dual AS-ADHD diagnosis but I think if I had to pick one I'd go with ADHD. Simply because the AS diagnosis gives you some understanding and peace of mind, whereas ADHD diagnosis gives you that, plus medication.
|
|
|
Post by mizmog on Aug 28, 2011 9:21:57 GMT
Hi all, I also hv asd-ADHD but I still don't get why ADHD meds seem to make some of the asd symptoms worse! I can only assume that as the ADHD symptoms r dulled, it just makes the other symptoms more apparent... Anyone else find this? Or yet again, am i just over thinking it?
|
|
|
Post by kakema on Aug 28, 2011 10:02:19 GMT
Which bits get worse, Miz?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2011 10:11:26 GMT
I found Dexedrine made me more relaxed in social situations.
|
|
|
Post by kakema on Aug 28, 2011 11:02:06 GMT
Me too! Generally chilled.
Although...are you getting Dexedrine in Ireland, jr? Coz it's generic dexamphetamine sulphate only over here. Technically the same, but I wonder if they really are the same.
|
|
|
Post by mizmog on Aug 28, 2011 11:11:18 GMT
Before concerta, I would hv been backed into a corner and forght my way out by shouting, throwing my teddies, and quitting my job/the party etc... And only afterwards feel the pain of consequence, but now I don't seem to hv the 'couldn't give a damn' attitude and actually seem to see others points of view but then I just role over and accept it cos I don't know how else to deal with it! I hv actually been called a walk over where as, Pre meds ppl just steered clear lol
The not being able to construct a social conversation is blatantly clear now and I am almost scared of going out (although I do) but it's that feeling that the meds hv taken away the nutty half of me that was propping up the weird half of me...
That make any sense?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2011 13:20:36 GMT
Before concerta, I would hv been backed into a corner and forght my way out by shouting, throwing my teddies, and quitting my job/the party etc... And only afterwards feel the pain of consequence, but now I don't seem to hv the 'couldn't give a damn' attitude and actually seem to see others points of view but then I just role over and accept it cos I don't know how else to deal with it! I hv actually been called a walk over where as, Pre meds ppl just steered clear lol The not being able to construct a social conversation is blatantly clear now and I am almost scared of going out (although I do) but it's that feeling that the meds hv taken away the nutty half of me that was propping up the weird half of me... That make any sense? Yes, it makes perfect sense. I suppose it's about finding a balance between exploding with anger and being a complete push-over. I've always been a complete push-over for the same reason as you - I can't articulate a decent defence while someone is telling me off, etc. Probably due to anxiety and the fact the person is looking right at me. So I end up saying nothing or agreeing with them, which I then get really frustrated about afterwards. I end up bottling in the rage that you seem to let out. I'm hoping the meds will let me articulate my words a little better, so I won't just roll over when someone says so.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2011 13:22:38 GMT
Me too! Generally chilled. Although...are you getting Dexedrine in Ireland, jr? Coz it's generic dexamphetamine sulphate only over here. Technically the same, but I wonder if they really are the same. Yes, I got dexedrine, but I suspect they were just left over stock from before they changed to generic. I imagine we'd be the same as you, as we're still in the UK.
|
|
|
Post by kakema on Aug 28, 2011 21:31:06 GMT
I used to rely on adrenaline to get things done. Now I know what's going on, I can't get as worked up about things, so my procrastination is even worse!
|
|
|
Post by mizmog on Aug 29, 2011 11:08:00 GMT
Jr, the concerta helps to a degree with the words, but now I take an IR in the afternoon cos I start to notice spaghetti coming outta my mouth instead of meaningful sentences... It does just about see me to the end of the work day, but I even hv to laugh at myself when hubby talks to me in the evening cos as the meds ware off completely my brain turns back into a pumpkin!
|
|