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Post by Mouse on Sept 18, 2011 20:09:15 GMT
Is there anyone else out there who has been diagnosed, tried meds, not found them useful at the dosage prescribed, and lost the will to get on and get them sorted?
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Post by kakema on Sept 18, 2011 23:05:05 GMT
Still trying to get the best mix. Mph good but too anxious, dex good, but not focused enough, about to try a mix of dex and atomoxetine. Mph focus was so tantalisingly fab, I'm quite motivated to find it again.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2011 17:48:30 GMT
Dont give up mouse, you've got this far there are many meds combinations you can try. You need to be a pain if your not happy with treatment consultant etc complain to medical directorate. Keep a diary of your day see if you can see a pattern of behaviour. Have you tried all the different types of self help? what sort of things have you got in place? Is there other underlying concerns making you fed up job? relationship etc making adhd stresses worse?? Even on meds I have bad days especially with morning sickness my father etc. It would be ashame now you've got this far this is what this site is for to support you when you feel like c**p. Be kind to self. OOhshyni I know what like to be anxious and medicated its hard to get right especially if you are hyper by nature.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2011 19:50:14 GMT
Many dosages turned out not enough but I won't lose my will to get them sorted. It's very important. I think many people stop medication just because they don't get the right dose and it's too bad. Partly I think it's doctors' fault. They don't know how pills work and how to help people faster. I can see how some people get tired of waiting for months on bad dosages. Find out as much as you can about people's experience. Maybe you will find that other people had the same issue and solved it.
Push your doc to help you. If he doesn't know much, no reason to listen to him like he does.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2011 20:04:22 GMT
oooshiny! what's the dose of too anxious Mph? Are you just making a conclusion from the dose that you've got without trying others? I have a theory about Mph and anxiety. To me anxiety is nothing more than stimulation the brain needs. So when the dose is not enough or starts to cross the effectiveness line, you get anxiety or anything else that's around you flows into the brain. It's because there's not enough stimulation and nothing to hold on to for the brain. The closer the dose to the optimal, the more anxiety you get when it wears off. That's why I think many people not knowing what the hell is going on just stop medication. They blame anxiety on medication when in reality it's not medication's fault. It's just the fact that your brain feels understimulated when stimulation level drops, and there is simply no other way to remove anxiety unless you jump straight to the optimal dose which you don't know how much. I would bet that people more often start to feel anxiety not the first day on the increased dose, but when they start to feel that it doesn't work that good. Or to put it more simply, anxiety doesn't occur when the brain gets enough stimulation. If there is anxiety, your ADHD symptoms are there too. I don't think anxiety often described is somehow there by itself. It's connected to the feeling of understimulation. When you have an anxiety, you also have songs playing in your head or whatever comes down to mind. And sure enough, if you take a pill that gives you a level of stimulation that you don't have to work to get, then when it declines the brain wants it back. Hence you feel the zombie effect or anxiety. Seems to me that many people do not understand this.
I would be surprised if people didn't feel an anxiety on the dose that is less than optimal and then tolerance makes it less and less effective. It would contradict the very nature of the brain craving for stimulation. You can't give it stimulation, take it away and not feel understimulated. But that's what many people seem to want from medication. For some reason they feel that it should work on the dose they get and it should all be smooth, doesn't matter if it's the right dose for them. If they need 100, they get 50 and want it to not create anxiety. How it's possible? Remember what your brain does when you listen to amazingly catchy song and suddenly turn it off — it gets stimulation and then loses it. What happens? It keeps playing the song! Or keeps repeating the social situation you've been in. Can you make it stop? No. Is it medication's fault? No, it happened all your life without medication. The only difference is that there was a source of stimulation to play with. And with a pill it's the pill, if it's gone it's gone.
Another thing I've read that for some people optimal Mph dose is 180mg. I would bet that on 100mg such person would feel anxiety. We are playing with the very thing that makes our brain to hyperfocus on interesting stuff here. Are you surprised that it's going where you don't want to go and you don't have control? No, it happened to you all the time, it's what ADHD is. How is anxiety different from that? It's thoughts you do not control. I'd say it's not possible to avoid understimulation on insufficient doses. It's not vacuum we're dealing with. We're trying to slowly get our brains a stable level of stimulation from the pill, not from the world or the memory, so that we could do what we want to do, not the random stuff.
I will even try my luck and say that every time someone says that anxiety affects the tolerance of their medication, it's actually the opposite of that. Anxiety is the result of insufficient stimulation.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2011 0:11:25 GMT
very interesting ilovemusic
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Post by Mouse on Sept 21, 2011 6:32:11 GMT
I have read the replies but can't formulate a reply except this one. I wouldn't say I have given up... just can't get my ar*e in gear. I don't know whether to go back to original psychiatrist or find a new one. I am supposed to be getting ready for work so cannot post more.
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Post by twix on Sept 21, 2011 8:15:26 GMT
Ah, now I get you. Not being able to get my bum in gear, I am sure we all know that feeling!
I think its often because of not being able to make a decision as you describe, probably because you don't have all the information maybe. So don't get cross with yourself, break the task into little tiny bits. Like researching your options. Just make the first step.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2011 8:56:27 GMT
oooshiny! what's the dose of too anxious Mph? Are you just making a conclusion from the dose that you've got without trying others? I have a theory about Mph and anxiety. To me anxiety is nothing more than stimulation the brain needs. So when the dose is not enough or starts to cross the effectiveness line, you get anxiety or anything else that's around you flows into the brain. It's because there's not enough stimulation and nothing to hold on to for the brain. The closer the dose to the optimal, the more anxiety you get when it wears off. That's why I think many people not knowing what the hell is going on just stop medication. They blame anxiety on medication when in reality it's not medication's fault. It's just the fact that your brain feels understimulated when stimulation level drops, and there is simply no other way to remove anxiety unless you jump straight to the optimal dose which you don't know how much. I would bet that people more often start to feel anxiety not the first day on the increased dose, but when they start to feel that it doesn't work that good. Or to put it more simply, anxiety doesn't occur when the brain gets enough stimulation. If there is anxiety, your ADHD symptoms are there too. I don't think anxiety often described is somehow there by itself. It's connected to the feeling of understimulation. When you have an anxiety, you also have songs playing in your head or whatever comes down to mind. And sure enough, if you take a pill that gives you a level of stimulation that you don't have to work to get, then when it declines the brain wants it back. Hence you feel the zombie effect or anxiety. Seems to me that many people do not understand this. I would be surprised if people didn't feel an anxiety on the dose that is less than optimal and then tolerance makes it less and less effective. It would contradict the very nature of the brain craving for stimulation. You can't give it stimulation, take it away and not feel understimulated. But that's what many people seem to want from medication. For some reason they feel that it should work on the dose they get and it should all be smooth, doesn't matter if it's the right dose for them. If they need 100, they get 50 and want it to not create anxiety. How it's possible? Remember what your brain does when you listen to amazingly catchy song and suddenly turn it off — it gets stimulation and then loses it. What happens? It keeps playing the song! Or keeps repeating the social situation you've been in. Can you make it stop? No. Is it medication's fault? No, it happened all your life without medication. The only difference is that there was a source of stimulation to play with. And with a pill it's the pill, if it's gone it's gone. Another thing I've read that for some people optimal Mph dose is 180mg. I would bet that on 100mg such person would feel anxiety. We are playing with the very thing that makes our brain to hyperfocus on interesting stuff here. Are you surprised that it's going where you don't want to go and you don't have control? No, it happened to you all the time, it's what ADHD is. How is anxiety different from that? It's thoughts you do not control. I'd say it's not possible to avoid understimulation on insufficient doses. It's not vacuum we're dealing with. We're trying to slowly get our brains a stable level of stimulation from the pill, not from the world or the memory, so that we could do what we want to do, not the random stuff. I will even try my luck and say that every time someone says that anxiety affects the tolerance of their medication, it's actually the opposite of that. Anxiety is the result of insufficient stimulation. Hi. I stopped taking MPH due to anxiety. I was more anxious on the correct doseage (15mg per dose). I had to take 5mg per dose in the end, just to cope with the anxiety it gave me, so in my case the opposite happened. John
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Post by andy12345 on Sept 21, 2011 13:12:56 GMT
There might be a sweet spot for medications but remember that a percentage (unknown) of medications in the past and some now were/are never designed for their actual current purposes, where the brain is concerned. I think that you may need 2 or 3 types of medication and possibly extra nutrients, such as checking particularly your levels of the water soluble b vitamin group. B vitamins, except b12 are constantly lost due to water solubility.Also vit c... No one really knows the subtle effects of drugs/nutrients, only the major effects.
You may never get the results you hope for, but if you get a 50% reduction of symptoms, you are doing better than before.
AS for the future, drugs can be engineered to fit your profile better as some may have ion channel disease/disorders or other genetic differences that affect your response to drugs.
If you smoke or take alcohol with your medications, then you are already changing the end results...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2011 23:42:45 GMT
Forgot to mention. Some of the things I was saying only apply to long acting Mph. jonboy, it's not the opposite, it's just that the short acting Ritalin declines and peaks differently, as Dexedrine, I believe. With Concerta, I have zero anxiety at the end of the day on effective dose. Again, I am surprised that people are surprised by anxiety medication gives them at the end, like it's something from the outer space and not part of the problem you've already had. It's related to exact problem that you have with ADHD. It's not Mph that gives you an anxiety, it's release mechanism.
Specialists who do not get it do not get ADHD. They don't know what they are doing, in regard to dosages too.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2011 0:01:49 GMT
I also got bad anxiety on concerta, which is why I went on to try immediate release MPH.
I get very little anxiety on Dexamfetamine though (yay!) - but also very little focus (not so yay!). I think that the extreme focus that I got on MPH also made me focus too much on anxiety (subconciously).
John
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2011 10:16:38 GMT
No, I'm pretty sure that you don't have extreme focus the moment you have an anxiety. Either you have one or the other, but not both. Focus on something you don't want to focus on is not something I call focus. And what's the point in ADHD medication if it's not helping you with focus?
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andy12345 epic lazyness
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Post by andy12345 epic lazyness on Sept 22, 2011 19:50:59 GMT
.
Do you see the relationship there between positive medication/anxiety and no anxiety??
There's a clear example that concerta, which works for you, gives you that "feeling" of anxiety.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2011 0:23:10 GMT
No, I'm pretty sure that you don't have extreme focus the moment you have an anxiety. Either you have one or the other, but not both. Focus on something you don't want to focus on is not something I call focus. And what's the point in ADHD medication if it's not helping you with focus? You obviously have not experienced what I have, or you would not have stated what you have above. The point of Dex for me, is that it seems to reduce my anxiety, it slows my thoughts down, and helps me with anger management. So no point taking them eh
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2011 0:26:23 GMT
. Do you see the relationship there between positive medication/anxiety and no anxiety?? There's a clear example that concerta, which works for you, gives you that "feeling" of anxiety. The point is that Concerta does not work for me. I have had anxiety problems all my life, methylphenidate makes it worse. Positive medication (i.e. Dex) does not.
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Post by andy12345 blah on Sept 23, 2011 1:20:59 GMT
Erm, good point, it's a 50/50 but you don't want to live with the Extra anxiety as anxiety itself is bad enough, which I know greatly about.
One medicine obviously won't work for you, you'll have to find 2 that work together for you, if this is possible.
As time goes on, better drugs should hopefully be produced.
What does your doctor say about this?
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Post by kakema on Sept 23, 2011 19:31:15 GMT
I feel like jb. There were things I loved about mph, but at the dosage I needed to achieve optimal focus, I became very mentally unstable. I felt if I'd continued, I'd have become psychotic. I wasn't anxious about my symptoms, I was paranoid and getting overwrought about trivial stuff. Dex takes me in the opposite direction; so long as i keep taking it consistently, I'm very stable and don't get bothered about much. My underlying mood instability (a core symptom of my ADHD) quickly re-emerges if I get lazy with my meds.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2011 10:31:21 GMT
jonboy Ok, but it also doesn't give you much focus as you wrote. And MPH you said gave you more focus. So to me doesn't look like it wasn't working for you. Fits into my theory.
oooshiny! If you "became" mentally unstable, then I understand that it didn't happen in the beginning at that dose. Only later. To me it means that you developed tolerance and it wasn't optimal for you anymore. And it correlates with what I wrote earlier.
> My underlying mood instability (a core symptom of my ADHD) quickly re-emerges if I get lazy with my meds.
I think that's because your dose is still too small. So when you get lazy, you don't get stimulation in and your dose becomes only source of it, hence you get that anxiety/mood instability effect on its decline ( curve down) that I wrote about. Still fits. When you are active you get enough stimulation so that medication's decline doesn't create understimulation effect (anxiety). But it also means that if you get really, really active, the dose will not be enough to fight your usual ADHD symptoms.
I'd say with a dose good enough you will not get anxiety if you get lazy and you will also get enough stimulation to stay focused on whatever you are doing even in a busy environment.
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Post by kakema on Sept 24, 2011 13:09:14 GMT
Nope. I don't agree.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2011 14:52:16 GMT
. Do you see the relationship there between positive medication/anxiety and no anxiety?? There's a clear example that concerta, which works for you, gives you that "feeling" of anxiety. The point is that Concerta does not work for me. I have had anxiety problems all my life, methylphenidate makes it worse. Positive medication (i.e. Dex) does not. That's interesting. I have really bad anxiety and I actually do better on the correct dose of Concerta. When when I'm under dosed I'm a mess.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2011 15:13:46 GMT
kameel, me too. By the way, the dose you were on before the optimal dose for you, did it work for some time? For how long? What happened when it stopped working? Did you feel like symptoms are bad than usual ADD?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2011 16:02:44 GMT
kameel, me too. By the way, the dose you were on before the optimal dose for you, did it work for some time? For how long? What happened when it stopped working? Did you feel like symptoms are bad than usual ADD? I don't remember. I haven't been on the 'optimal' dose since I was a kid. I'm starting over after coming off my meds for years. so i'm at my second dose change, hoping it's the last but I think i might have one more step up before i get to 'optimal'. I'm still only getting lasting effects until 8:30pm then I crash as usual. I find if my blood sugar is low as well from the 'forgetting to eat' all day i'm worse. so i tend to try and eat before i crash, it helps a lot! When i miss one day it's not too bad, i just over sleep and feel hazy, groggy. but if I miss two days in a row, i'm a mess, total basket case!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2011 2:05:08 GMT
jonboy Ok, but it also doesn't give you much focus as you wrote. And MPH you said gave you more focus. So to me doesn't look like it wasn't working for you. Fits into my theory. oooshiny! If you "became" mentally unstable, then I understand that it didn't happen in the beginning at that dose. Only later. To me it means that you developed tolerance and it wasn't optimal for you anymore. And it correlates with what I wrote earlier. > My underlying mood instability (a core symptom of my ADHD) quickly re-emerges if I get lazy with my meds. I think that's because your dose is still too small. So when you get lazy, you don't get stimulation in and your dose becomes only source of it, hence you get that anxiety/mood instability effect on its decline ( curve down) that I wrote about. Still fits. When you are active you get enough stimulation so that medication's decline doesn't create understimulation effect (anxiety). But it also means that if you get really, really active, the dose will not be enough to fight your usual ADHD symptoms. I'd say with a dose good enough you will not get anxiety if you get lazy and you will also get enough stimulation to stay focused on whatever you are doing even in a busy environment. I have tried to explain that your theory is wrong (in my case) - but feel free to try and believe that it is correct for everyone, just because it is for yourself.
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Post by Mouse on Sept 25, 2011 7:24:18 GMT
I think it is helpful to share our experiences and perhaps offer tentative explanations to others on the forum, but, as my parents would often remind me, 'just a touch wearing when it all gets too 'evangelical'! One size does not fit all. ;D
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