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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2013 10:24:46 GMT
So more evidence to confound detractors From: drescotet.sharedby.co/share/xka5Mh"A new study by the University of Cambridge in the UK questions the widely held view that dysfunction in dopamine - a chemical that controls the brain's reward and pleasure centers - is the main cause of ADHD, a condition characterized by inattentiveness, hyperactivity and impulsiveness." This article is interesting and concedes the existence of ADD/ADHD but also suggests those with or without the condition are improved by use of Ritalin. For me it is clear that the article emphasises more on structural physical differences in the brain than chemical imbalances going on to mention "less grey matter" which is a bit disconcerting.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2013 11:46:30 GMT
All I see in that article is more reasons GPs will use to refuse shared care of stimulants. You have to ask yourself, what was the motive behind this research? I suspect it was nothing to do with 'helping' ADHDers and more about highlighting the abuse potential of ritalin. Just as an extra 'fuck you' it also implies the ADHDers had smaller brains. Awesome. Again... I'm not sure why you thought this was of any value. I'll STFU now
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2013 13:15:45 GMT
All I see in that article is more reasons GPs will use to refuse shared care of stimulants. You have to ask yourself, what was the motive behind this research? I suspect it was nothing to do with 'helping' ADHDers and more about highlighting the abuse potential of ritalin. Just as an extra 'fuck you' it also implies the ADHDers had smaller brains. Awesome. Again... I'm not sure why you thought this was of any value. I'll STFU now All I'm doing is trying to face up to the opposition. We can't just sweep it under the carpet like it's not there. I couldn't give a shit if healthcare professionals tell me I have a "smaller" brain, as they're probably going to behind my back regardless of this report, because that "smaller" brain still made it through a Russell Group university. If you listen to Russell Barkley, it's more about having a poorly formed frontal lobe whereas the rest of the brain is often better developed than others. It's as if an ADHD/ADD brain is overall the same as any other brain just wired differently/weighted out of general equilibrium. I get the feeling that some people just want positivity on this forum. Well, and to my recent cost, this condition ain't f***ing positive. So I'm not going to come on here and make it all rosy, because it ain't. And I'm sorry if that's going to make me unpopular, but I'm crying to f*** inside trying to come to terms with a life lost. And whilst we should be embracing positive things, we should all be facing up to the negative as well - together as a group. That's my view and it's totally based on my experiences of people in society and the institutionalized bias out there. And unless we all stick together, they are simply going to pick us off one-by-one. You don't fight negativity by pretending it's not there. And that article isn't all negative; because at the very least it concedes the existence of ADHD/ADD. And if it's true that we are indeed born with less grey matter in certain areas (and I'm not for one minute suggesting this is true), then we might as well embrace it and fight to do something about it. But what it says to me is that once diagnosed, I can perhaps make a more informed decision about meds. It'll be up to me whether or not I believe the report from Cambridge is mere political manipulation or a worthy appraisal worth taking on board. I hope others view it in the same way too in order to weigh up their own treatment.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2013 13:23:38 GMT
Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of the sheep.Which one are you?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2013 13:44:36 GMT
Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of the sheep.Which one are you? In terms of a report it's got nothing to do with lions or sheep. It's about fact or fiction. If there's something valid in the report, then you deal with it. Are you rejecting the report on any other grounds other than a conspiracy? If so, why? If a person rejects it because it doesn't sit comfortably, well then that suggests ostrich to me.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2013 13:51:22 GMT
I fear my good intentions are possibly being misconstrued as oppositional, although I do go off on one at times and forget myself. This is almost certainly one of those times. Apologies for being a preachy twat
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2013 13:58:06 GMT
I fear my good intentions are possibly being misconstrued as oppositional, although I do go off on one at times and forget myself. This is almost certainly one of those times. Apologies for being a preachy twat <dons dark glasses and goes to have a lie down somewhere >
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2013 15:57:06 GMT
It doesn't matter - Ritalin works.
Study after study has found stimulant meds improve brain function - we assumed ADHD was down to neurotransmitters but it matters not a jot.
If blue smarties made me better I'd be chasing them.
This is one piece of research amongst plenty that are spotting anomalies in the brain structure of ADHDers.
On the other hand there is evidence that supports neurotransmitter balance issues.
I suspect that both are correct and each side is defending their own hypothesis - scientific willy waving.
On the downside - what does the report have to say that helps us? Research is a good thing but a treatment with a positive outcome is better.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2013 16:59:28 GMT
I've read the original article (well most of it - got really dull towards the end), and the 'summary' reported in that link is biased to say the least. Although the research found reduced grey matter in certain areas of the ADHD brain, there was no overall reduction in grey matterThe majority of ADHD participants (15) were diagnosed as Combined. Just 1 Inattentive participated. This is a major methodological issue. I have reviewed the literature on ADHD and executive functioning extensively (well, what little there is of it anyway) in preparation for carrying out research for a PhD (which didn't happen due to my lack of energy at the time). Not just the summaries, but original research papers. It has been established by leading psychs (the maudsley lot) that there are differences in cognitive abilities between the 3 ADHD subtypes. The research measured dopamine levels in areas of the brain involved in voluntary movement. The researchers admit they were unable to measure dopamine activity in other areas that may be involved in ADHD I want an eye-rolling emoticon here!!! WTF?!! As for the reduced grey matter - this was found in the following areas of the brain: Left pre-frontal cortex (involved in formulating plans and strategies. The left area is specifically involved in sequencing). Amygdala (the emotional centre of the brain) Hippocampus (memory - this is where I was taught dopamine has an effect) Umm, is any of that a surprise??!! Really??!!Another area mentioned was the putamen, an area involved in Parkinson's. And what causes Parkinson's? LACK OF DOPAMINEFFS. Since there's no eye-rolling emoticon, I'll just say it - I'm rolling my eyes so much, I hope they don't get stuck. In response to Planetdave - there is nothing in there that helps us. Nothing at all.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2013 18:37:25 GMT
Thanks for that extensive response ditzynerd, really helpful. Not all of us an get a copy of the entire report so good to get the view from someone who has.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2013 20:21:09 GMT
Thanks for that extensive response ditzynerd, really helpful. Not all of us an get a copy of the entire report so good to get the view from someone who has. If you scroll down to the end of the article you cited, there's a link to the original paper. It doesn't explain the areas of the brain though, I just added the explanation to my post. I didn't just get bored by the article - it really wound me up. I left out a lot of the shortcomings because I couldn't stomach how annoyed I felt I see where you're coming from with your views, but I (and many others I've met) are of the opinion that ADHD hasn't fucked up my life. Not one bit. It's society, and it's total disdain of anyone who is different, that has done this. Mental illness and disability are social constructs - labels given to those of us who fall outside the 'norms' of behaviour, so we can be drugged up or shunned for not living the way society says we should. I used to tell people I learned differently to others - this was always met with irritation. Why? Because NTs IMHO want to live easy, lazy lives and put those differences in a box, then close the lid, seal it, lock it, then throw away both the box and the key. I don't bury my head in the sand, but I pick my battles. I just think unless society changes its attitude, it's best to shun any crap that's said about my conditions.
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Post by boo on Oct 30, 2013 21:09:31 GMT
quality!!!!!!!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2013 9:22:38 GMT
Thanks for that extensive response ditzynerd, really helpful. Not all of us an get a copy of the entire report so good to get the view from someone who has. If you scroll down to the end of the article you cited, there's a link to the original paper. It doesn't explain the areas of the brain though, I just added the explanation to my post. That's great, just couldn't see that on my phone at all. Underneath the summary article, someone's posted their academic "reader opinion" which might be of interest to people: So let's say the above is true, shouldn't all those diagnosed with ADHD/ADD be offered a brain scan to determine which category they fit into? Well the cost and radiation issues have to be dealt with first, but scanning might be the future: " A SPECT scan can cost more than $3,500. It also exposes [patients] to radiation, and some experts say there isn’t enough evidence yet that it is an effective way to diagnose ADHD. " So according to this guy, stimulant meds won't help unless you definitely have left brain dysfunction ADD and a left brain that isn't somehow damaged. PS - assuming the responder is genuine. here's his "mini CV": www.adders.org/drbillycv.htm
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2013 9:56:32 GMT
The results of brain scans on people with ADHD have been inconsistent. So offering brain scans as a diagnostic tool would be completely pointless.
ADHD is also incredibly heterogeneous, which is unsurprising, given the large number of symptoms. Why do I have problems reading, but can listen just fine, while my mum devours novels, but tunes out 3 seconds into a conversation? If you scanned our brains, would there be differences in our visual and auditory corteces?
Compared to other sciences, neuroscience is really just getting started. There's so much about the brain that remains unknown. It's like physics is a wise old grandparent, while neuroscience is still an egg and sperm, and the sperm is staring at the egg thinking 'WTF am I supposed to do with that?!!'.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2013 10:09:15 GMT
The results of brain scans on people with ADHD have been inconsistent. So offering brain scans as a diagnostic tool would be completely pointless. ADHD is also incredibly heterogeneous, which is unsurprising, given the large number of symptoms. Why do I have problems reading, but can listen just fine, while my mum devours novels, but tunes out 3 seconds into a conversation? If you scanned our brains, would there be differences in our visual and auditory corteces? Compared to other sciences, neuroscience is really just getting started. There's so much about the brain that remains unknown. It's like physics is a wise old grandparent, while neuroscience is still an egg and sperm, and the sperm is staring at the egg thinking 'WTF am I supposed to do with that?!!'. Yes agreed and sort've alluded to that in my edit - "A SPECT scan .... isn’t enough evidence yet that it is an effective way to diagnose ADHD". But what d'you think of Levin's statement? Seemed a bit simplistic to me, but perhaps that's a solid conclusion he's come to after years practicing?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2013 10:35:53 GMT
I'd like to see the evidence base for his statement.
ADHD meds can reduce hyperactivity/impulsivity, as well as increase attention. So if hyperactivity is caused by right brain dominance, why do the meds work?!
IMHO, the more important issues are to work out why certain individuals with ADHD don't respond to meds. Are their brains different to others with ADHD, and if so, why? Or do meds need more sophisticated tweaking?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2013 10:42:10 GMT
Something wrong with this post wouldn't edit - see alternative below
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2013 10:49:54 GMT
ADHD meds can reduce hyperactivity/impulsivity, as well as increase attention. So if hyperactivity is caused by right brain dominance, why do the meds work?! I wonder if that's down to a balance i.e. it's the meds success at improving left brain function that in turn somehow helps suppress right brain hyperactivity/impulsivity. But if the left brain IS damaged, then meds make absolutely no difference in supporting ADHD symptoms regardless of right brain functionality.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2013 12:01:47 GMT
The original article in this thread found only minor differences in brain structure.
Plus the brain is capable of changing and developing throughout the life course. For example, scans have shown that the brain's of pianists differ - the area of the motor cortex that sends and receives info from the fingers grows significantly larger due to practice.
So if my hippocampus is smaller - is it 'damaged' due to ADHD, or did it shrink because my inability to pay attention and learn is affected, so it's received less input over the years?
If someone finds coping strategies - does that alter their brain, despite the underlying deficit remaining?
The article also said something towards the end about how dopamine is transported. I'd had enough by that point, but it basically said, although there were no differences in dopamine levels, they did not investigate whether there were differences between types of receptors.
The left vs right brain type theory is interesting, but I just think ADHD is way too diverse, and the brain far too complex, for such a simple explanation to be valid.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2013 12:31:14 GMT
The left vs right brain type theory is interesting, but I just think ADHD is way too diverse, and the brain far too complex, for such a simple explanation to be valid. No I entirely go along with that, it's just me trying to pick at Levin's response to the report. It would be nice if it was a simplistic as he proposes, but, like you suggest, I doubt there's going to be a quick fix answer. It's that ADHD/ADD impatience thing kicking in
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2013 13:07:55 GMT
Today's wikipedia excursion leads me to believe ADHD is very closely linked to GABA, especially as it appears that GABA based cell communication has a latency advantage over typical neurotransmitters (electrical vs chemical). I liken this to a primary/backup link scenario. Have we, for some reason, 'failed over' to GABA due to some dopaminergic/axonal deficit and never 'failed back' (IT speak)? If the dopaminergic response elicits action from secondary/tertiary systems en route, does this explain the poor working memory? You may have a perfectly formed dopaminergic pathway but if you're not using that pathway, it won't get committed anyway? For ages, we've likened ourselves to 8GHz processors with 128MB of RAM. If the above is true, it's more likely we are 8GHz processors with plenty (8GB+) of RAM that never makes it outside of the processor cache It might also explain why some of us feel stupider on meds. Flooding ourselves with dopamine (meds) possibly helps our brains fail back to the dopaminergic pathways? At least briefly anyway. Food for thought. Speaking of which, I am ravenous
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2013 13:54:18 GMT
Today's wikipedia excursion leads me to believe ADHD is very closely linked to GABA, especially as it appears that GABA based cell communication has a latency advantage over typical neurotransmitters (electrical vs chemical). I liken this to a primary/backup link scenario. Have we, for some reason, 'failed over' to GABA due to some dopaminergic/axonal deficit and never 'failed back' (IT speak)? If the dopaminergic response elicits action from secondary/tertiary systems en route, does this explain the poor working memory? You may have a perfectly formed dopaminergic pathway but if you're not using that pathway, it won't get committed anyway? For ages, we've likened ourselves to 8GHz processors with 128MB of RAM. If the above is true, it's more likely we are 8GHz processors with plenty (8GB+) of RAM that never makes it outside of the processor cache It might also explain why some of us feel stupider on meds. Flooding ourselves with dopamine (meds) possibly helps our brains fail back to the dopaminergic pathways? At least briefly anyway. Food for thought. Speaking of which, I am ravenous Fuck me, I dunno about meds making me feel stupider, but your IT analogies certainly have that effect!! I have read somewhere about GABA and ADHD, so I think I know what you mean. Could you post a link to the dumbed-down Wikipedia version please?!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2013 13:58:33 GMT
Today's wikipedia excursion leads me to believe ADHD is very closely linked to GABA, especially as it appears that GABA based cell communication has a latency advantage over typical neurotransmitters (electrical vs chemical). I liken this to a primary/backup link scenario. Have we, for some reason, 'failed over' to GABA due to some dopaminergic/axonal deficit and never 'failed back' (IT speak)? If the dopaminergic response elicits action from secondary/tertiary systems en route, does this explain the poor working memory? You may have a perfectly formed dopaminergic pathway but if you're not using that pathway, it won't get committed anyway? For ages, we've likened ourselves to 8GHz processors with 128MB of RAM. If the above is true, it's more likely we are 8GHz processors with plenty (8GB+) of RAM that never makes it outside of the processor cache It might also explain why some of us feel stupider on meds. Flooding ourselves with dopamine (meds) possibly helps our brains fail back to the dopaminergic pathways? At least briefly anyway. Food for thought. Speaking of which, I am ravenous Perhaps ADHDers just need to be rebooted into Linux
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2013 14:47:16 GMT
Today's wikipedia excursion leads me to believe ADHD is very closely linked to GABA, especially as it appears that GABA based cell communication has a latency advantage over typical neurotransmitters (electrical vs chemical). I liken this to a primary/backup link scenario. Have we, for some reason, 'failed over' to GABA due to some dopaminergic/axonal deficit and never 'failed back' (IT speak)? If the dopaminergic response elicits action from secondary/tertiary systems en route, does this explain the poor working memory? You may have a perfectly formed dopaminergic pathway but if you're not using that pathway, it won't get committed anyway? For ages, we've likened ourselves to 8GHz processors with 128MB of RAM. If the above is true, it's more likely we are 8GHz processors with plenty (8GB+) of RAM that never makes it outside of the processor cache It might also explain why some of us feel stupider on meds. Flooding ourselves with dopamine (meds) possibly helps our brains fail back to the dopaminergic pathways? At least briefly anyway. Food for thought. Speaking of which, I am ravenous Fuck me, I dunno about meds making me feel stupider, but your IT analogies certainly have that effect!! I have read somewhere about GABA and ADHD, so I think I know what you mean. Could you post a link to the dumbed-down Wikipedia version please?! I'd love to but not possible atm. Can you wait?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2013 15:57:54 GMT
Fuck me, I dunno about meds making me feel stupider, but your IT analogies certainly have that effect!! I have read somewhere about GABA and ADHD, so I think I know what you mean. Could you post a link to the dumbed-down Wikipedia version please?! I'd love to but not possible atm. Can you wait? Pmsl Noooo! I have ADHD, of course I can't wait!
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Post by jan on Nov 1, 2013 21:39:19 GMT
Today's wikipedia excursion leads me to believe ADHD is very closely linked to GABA, especially as it appears that GABA based cell communication has a latency advantage over typical neurotransmitters (electrical vs chemical). I liken this to a primary/backup link scenario. Have we, for some reason, 'failed over' to GABA due to some dopaminergic/axonal deficit and never 'failed back' (IT speak)? If the dopaminergic response elicits action from secondary/tertiary systems en route, does this explain the poor working memory? You may have a perfectly formed dopaminergic pathway but if you're not using that pathway, it won't get committed anyway? For ages, we've likened ourselves to 8GHz processors with 128MB of RAM. If the above is true, it's more likely we are 8GHz processors with plenty (8GB+) of RAM that never makes it outside of the processor cache It might also explain why some of us feel stupider on meds. Flooding ourselves with dopamine (meds) possibly helps our brains fail back to the dopaminergic pathways? At least briefly anyway. Food for thought. Speaking of which, I am ravenous Perhaps ADHDers just need to be rebooted into Linuxdunno what the fuck that means but it sounds funny (lovin the new name by the way )
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2013 22:04:52 GMT
@michael - had a eureka moment when dex wore off and remembered where I'd read about GABA... Sodium oxybate, also known as GHB (yes, the date-rape drug) affects GABA levels, and is used to treat narcolepsy. It's a sedative, but also causes wakefulness (people wake up 2 hours after 1st dose, then take another). GHB causes memory loss. Hmm. Got me wandering through Wikipedia.... Sedatives used to treat anxiety affect GABA levels. This includes benzodiazepines - the only type of med I've taken that has been really effective in reducing my anxiety. As we know, sleep problems and anxiety are common problems for us ADHD lot. More food for thought
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2013 22:19:03 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2013 22:24:01 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2013 22:40:44 GMT
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