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Post by bluedrifter on Apr 18, 2014 12:30:12 GMT
SEE OTHER THREAD (this information is laid out much clearer there) aadduk.proboards.com/thread/7861/off-work-again-revisited
Sorry if this is the wrong section for this thread, (general) I'm quite happy to have it moved if there is a more appropriate location.
I've been off work 3 times recently (within the last year or so) with what I thought was work stress.
Having recently, been diagnosed via clinical psychology with adhd/add, I'm due to see a psychiatrist next month, about medication and a refined diagnosis. (I rather think that I have more inattentive issues than hyperactivity, though at times I talk too much and slip into elongated procrastination).
The current problem is, at my work all the employees are to complete a competency assessment, I have explained to my employer (quite a large organization) how my condition effects my ability to function at times, and very much so during stressful meetings with managers/supervisors when disagreements have arisen.
At these times it has not been completely unusual for me to blurt out something that might be inappropriate '' You're making that up'' when I hear something that I'm sure did not happen.
The crux of the matter is that I usually communicate well with my colleagues, unless I'm being harassed or feel stressed, and this occurs often at meetings/conversations with managers about various issues and work practices.
It's when I feel anxious and tend to blurt things out as my body becomes so rigid, my mind simply comes straight out my mouth before I can think what next to say it's all too late.
So the manager of the area/service where I work, has stated that my teamwork and communication does not meet the criteria for competency, thus I am being asked to complete a ' employee development plan'. I have an NVQ 3 where I have completed elements of the criteria that involves teamwork & communication. (I did this before my current employment)
So there is not much wrong with my teamwork or communication at work outside of these stressful situations.
I have provided my employer with an occupational health assessment, and a list of symptoms that I gathered about myself, neither of which appear to have been taken into account, I have stated to my manager that I could participate in 'development plans' for the next 20 yrs but It won't do much about these 'occasional situations' until I have had medical treatment.
The manager would not look at my list of symptoms and stated that I will be treated the same as everyone else, my response was that it's not fair with my condition to use instances where I'm clearly not well, and stressed because of the tension of meetings, as examples of my practice in general, and in doing that I feel harassed and not supported.
The manager then said, if you're saying I'm harassing you 'you'd better leave my office and make a complaint' so now I've gone sick from my work again, I tried to contact my union rep, but he's on annual leave until May, and the union office is closed for the Easter break, I've tried to contact my GP but the clinic is closed until Tuesday due to Easter also.
I don't really know who to contact that would be able to help me, when I try to explain the problem is not with my competency but with my condition, I'm not being supported, rather I'm told, 'see you're being argumentative/inappropriate' now, when in fact I'm saying that I'm feeling unwell, unsupported and now harassed, and the more I explain what the problem is, the more I'm told that I'm being inappropriate, showing poor teamwork and communication.
Any suggestions or advice would be welcome, until I see the psychiatrist In mid May or my union rep returns from his annual leave, in two weeks time, I'm just off my work, and it seems like a case is being built against me, now that they know I have adhd/add, I've noticed that they change what they'd said, and when I challenge them about this, they say that I was not listening/paying attention and that due to my condition I keep missing what they say, (I'm not sure that I do) so it's a case of, the manager and one or two others that work with the manager do appreciate my condition when it suits them, but refuse to appreciate my condition when I blurt something out in a stressful situation, and deem me incompetent in certain elements of my work, mainly communication/teamwork.
PS I know a lot of people using this forum have their own problems to deal with, so sorry if it's a drag
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Post by shapes on Apr 18, 2014 13:21:34 GMT
That sounds awful, hopefully there is someone here who can help you or point you in the right direction.
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Post by purplepower on Apr 18, 2014 15:40:36 GMT
When you say you have an Occ Health assessment, who did that? And what did you mean by this "\been diagnosed via clinical psychology with adhd/add?" You need a documented list of behaviours from a psychiatrist who needs to work with you/ Occ Health to work out how to help you cope in those situations. You also need to some leg work off your own with CBT etc but being on medication will help you be able to do that. I am sorry you are having such a hard time.
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Post by bluedrifter on Apr 18, 2014 16:48:51 GMT
When you say you have an Occ Health assessment, who did that? And what did you mean by this "\been diagnosed via clinical psychology with adhd/add?" You need a documented list of behaviours from a psychiatrist who needs to work with you/ Occ Health to work out how to help you cope in those situations. You also need to some leg work off your own with CBT etc but being on medication will help you be able to do that. I am sorry you are having such a hard time. I've only quoted your post so that I can see your questions on my screen as I type.
I had my Occ Health assessment done by OHSAS www.ohsas.org/
Now I understand that this is not a diagnosis assessment, rather it's an occupational assessment, where it was agreed that I'd require 'extra support' by my employer. I had requested this referral from my employer.
I'm going to be seeing the OHSAS Dr again after I've seen the psychiatrist. I'm seeing the psychiatrist in May, and then once the psychiatrists report has been sent to my GP, then I will go to the OHSAS Dr again for further recommendations at work, IE how my employer needs to support me.
In the mean time I'm being expected to do this competency assessment at work, so I have had to go to the OHSAS Dr with only my clinical psychology report, thus the OHSAS Dr has written to my employer with some recommendations about 'extra support in some areas of my work, and then an update in June after the psychiatric report has been 'created'. (for the want of a better term)
The clinical psychology report has identified adhd/add without being specific. ( I guess the psychiatrist will be more so)
As for the list of behaviours, yes it's my own list, but as I'm being expected to perform a 'competency assessment' I need to supply my employer with as much information as I can, the problem is is that my employer has not waited until my psychiatric report has been sent to them via OHSAS before commencing my 'competency assessment'.
Thus they are also stating that what I call my symptoms, are basically a display of incompetence in relation to my role, including teamwork & communication.
I need to get some support to have them hold off, because they've already got me to do the assessment and marked me as incompetent in those two areas.
I'm arguing that I am competent in those areas and have NVQ 2 NVQ 3 to prove this, and it's only my adhd/add symptoms that are being judged as incompetent.
I'm now having to make a compliant.
I hope this has answered your questions without 'drifting' thanks for your supportive words.
Is CBT citizens advice ? If so I think they will refer me to my Union, if not can you say what CBT is please?
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Post by purplepower on Apr 18, 2014 16:56:53 GMT
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Post by bluedrifter on Apr 18, 2014 18:30:21 GMT
Thanks for the CBT link, yes HR are involved, but they 'lost' the first two OHSAS referrals that were submitted, the third one was not lost, the OHSAS Dr has also reported that HR put on the referral that I have problems dealing with change, this was identified in the OHSAS assessment. (I requested a copy)
However I don't have any more problems dealing with change than most other people, I had asked my employer to give me notice if I were to be working in another city or something, so that I can make arrangements to accommodate this in my social/private life, as I will be getting home later than usual.
For some reason HR have included this in my referral to OHSAS, so I also need to complain of this 'symptom' that they have made of me, when it was a etiquette request not a matter of medical diagnosis, so they are interfering with my O/H assessment, I'll need to tell that Dr this when I see him in June.
I think I could ask for some counselling as the organization I work for do offer such, I guess I could access CBT support that way. I think it's unlikely that they'd know enough about adhd or add to be of much use, as you probably know, unless you have or live with someone with such a condition it's difficult for people, even counsellors to understand( except those who work with adhd children etc..).
Nobody seems to understand when I say that I either keep changing focus, and I hyper focus, this means that I'm completely focused on one thing, for example a news article, but I need to read it several times because I'm not able to focus on receiving the story, but I'm completely focused on wanting to read it, so then I'm in a type of off balance state, If then I'm distracted by someone making 'background noise' then my focus on my inability to focus is broken, I'm then annoyed. I hate being annoyed so much.
I had some self hypnosis downloads from another psychologist, but when I listened to them, I either fell asleep, or I started thinking about things that were not relaxing. One of my biggest problems is that I can't quite describe what my condition is like, it feels that there is no words available to describe it, I end up then giving scenarios, people often take the scenario as what it's like to have my condition, when the scenario does not represent my condition but only the lack of language available.
It's a bit like you want to describe a tomato but there is no words for red or round. So then you think of scenarios to describe red or round, but you've not yet described the tomato, but by this time the other person is looking at their watch, and they then leave thinking that a tomato is something like an elongated conversation about something that does not exist.
I guess that's procrastination.
I know I'm going to have to wait for my union rep to get back from his annual leave, and I'm going to have to make an appointment for my GP on Tuesday, when they re-open the clinic after the Easter break, and then be off work for about a month.
I'm having problems remembering and relaying all this information between, my union, my GP, my employer, OHSAS psychiatrist etc....
My union is called unite, I need to find out if they have any health care liaison service, where I can tell all this to someone, and then they can help me with the whole thing.
It has helped writing it here, because now that I have it all laid out here, I can see it all much clearer.
Thanks for responding.
( I really need to make my posts shorter)
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Post by contrarymary on Apr 18, 2014 18:49:54 GMT
Nobody seems to understand when I say that I either keep changing focus, and I hyper focus, this means that I'm completely focused on one thing, for example a news article, but I need to read it several times because I'm not able to focus on receiving the story, but I'm completely focused on wanting to read it, so then I'm in a type of off balance state, If then I'm distracted by someone making 'background noise' then my focus on my inability to focus is broken, I'm then annoyed. I hate being annoyed so much.
This sounds completely normal to me, sadly ... It's a bit like you want to describe a tomato but there is no words for red or round. So then you think of scenarios to describe red or round, but you've not yet described the tomato, but by this time the other person is looking at their watch, and they then leave thinking that a tomato is something like an elongated conversation about something that does not exist.
i think that's a brilliant way of describing it - thank you for that. i don't have the words either - most of us don't.
if you read ozadd 's v recent thread about preparing for his psych appointment you'd see that we end up saying tons where we never actually get to the point because we're struggling so much but terrified we will miss out something crucial and therefore throw in everything "just in case"
(aagh i've got stuck in your box. i'll start another reply!)
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Post by contrarymary on Apr 18, 2014 18:57:25 GMT
there are also other resources out there which can help you. it sounds to me as tho your employer (or at least your manager) may be on pretty thin ice atm, at best misguided... there have been useful threads on this, and indeed people talking about disability support which is available from the DWP etc. i'm so sorry that i can't remember a thing right now. there are also people on this forum who know lots about this sort of thing from personal experience or because they have advocated for others, but i can't remember who they are right now either. apart from the amazing jj and Kathymel who are sadly not around just now... @planetdave ? DKL - darkknightslover ? hang in there bluedrifter - you are not alone and it will get easier, honest
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Post by purplepower on Apr 18, 2014 19:10:17 GMT
HR sound like they are treading on thin ice!!
Btw the thing with change. I think ADHDers can have problems with that, especially if it involves a change to something we are struggling with and have a system for.
Who wrote your psychology report?
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Post by bluedrifter on Apr 18, 2014 19:11:03 GMT
BTW I see what you mean about CBT now, I'll read it all, it will take me sometime to do so, I like the idea of self help, it's just a lot of reading, I'll have a go at step one tomorrow, I'm feeling a bit tired now.
Thanks.
EDIT ... The psychology report was written by a clinical psychologist, I have not got a copy of it, they contacted my family etc.....
My GP said it's full of 'sensitive information' so I've not seen it?
But my GP has given an overview of it to OHSAS.
PS edit I had had an assessment for Asperger's and that's how things developed and adhd/add was concluded. Not Asperger's.
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Post by bluedrifter on Apr 18, 2014 19:32:56 GMT
Thanks contrarymary
Should I look at those peoples posts?
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Post by bluedrifter on Apr 18, 2014 19:41:53 GMT
purpleparlour I edited updated my last post, I'd had a clinical psychology assessment for Asperger's however the conclusions was that I have not got Asperger's but I have an awful lot of the common symptoms of adhd add both.
But less of the hyper but still some hyper activity in thought.
So that's why it's vague until I see the psychiatrist for a more detailed assessment, my wife is coming with me as she sees me do things that I'm unaware of, such as when I look for something I tend to rush about looking in such a manner that won't likely find it as I'm just getting agitated. I then get everything out of every drawer and the place is in such a mess I can't find anything, I end up losing something else.
It's quite amusing to reflect on but very annoying at the time.
So I'm glad she's coming with me.
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Post by bluedrifter on Apr 18, 2014 19:49:50 GMT
contrarymary oh of course, and thanks.
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Post by contrarymary on Apr 18, 2014 19:52:37 GMT
you might like to have a look at ozadd's thread (simply because it was v recent and is thus in my mind and possibly easier to find!) the other people i have tagged so that when they come onto the forum they'll have a flag to look at this thread. (they have tons of posts so it would be a bit of a needle/haystack situation! ) i think they'll have useful things to say - sit tight for a bit and see what comes... if all else fails i can do a major google - v specific searches are my sole superpower (lightbulb moment - i just remembered about the DWP and the access to work support stuff - details here )
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 21:21:08 GMT
A diagnosis by a psychologist is enough for employment - the Equalities act applies to you as a 'disabled' person (ADHD is both severe enough and chronic so meets their criteria). Unite might need support, my experience with my union was unsatisfactory because they didn't get how serious ADHD can be and how, what might appear to be reasonable suggestions from management aren't. 10:20 on a Bank Holiday Friday is not a good time to get me to read anything (cheers! ) but feel free to get in contact for a discussion about ADHD and employment.
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Post by danherts on Apr 18, 2014 23:20:50 GMT
I think there are a few things you need to do.
Presumably you don't need to worry yourself about this over the Easter weekend as you wouldn't be at work anyway.
On Tuesday if you don't feel up to work, visit your GP and mention the stress you are clearly under due to the ignorant behaviour of your company's management. I would also query why I was being denied access to documentation regarding my health.
Phone Unite. You don't have to wait for your own rep to return from leave and someone will be able offer advice. They probably won't know anything about ADHD but should be able to help with you with your rights under the equality act and offer advice on what to do.
When you go back to work, log everything. Note what your management say and do and who else is present.
In the meantime, you can phone Unite's 24 hour legal helpline on 0800 709 007. Like most union helplines their remit is for anything NOT work related but they may be able to get someone to call you back with general advice on equality law.
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Post by bluedrifter on Apr 19, 2014 0:31:24 GMT
Thanks danherts
Seems like good advice, not that it really matters but I would be working over the Easter period and weekends, not that that really makes much difference to your advice, I think your right that Unite will be useful in some aspects for me, but useless with regards to adhd.
This is the obvious problem, but once my psychiatric report has been made then Unite will have something substantial to connect with that they recognize as a criteria itmas ( If that makes any sense).
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Post by bluedrifter on Apr 19, 2014 0:50:44 GMT
A diagnosis by a psychologist is enough for employment - the Equalities act applies to you as a 'disabled' person (ADHD is both severe enough and chronic so meets their criteria). Unite might need support, my experience with my union was unsatisfactory because they didn't get how serious ADHD can be and how, what might appear to be reasonable suggestions from management aren't. 10:20 on a Bank Holiday Friday is not a good time to get me to read anything (cheers! ) but feel free to get in contact for a discussion about ADHD and employment. Thanks planetdave, the problem appears to be that the organization that I work for, wants specific 'needs' highlighted, what I mean by this is that, they want specific issues spelled out and not just as the psychologist *OHSAS report based on the psychology report says '' he needs support at work with administration tasks'' 'he needs support with the competency framework assessment'' the company that I work for will treat me as any other employee unless they have specific laid out condition by a health professional, they are unwilling to accept the OHSAS report based on psychology ''he needs more support'' or my own list of symptoms.
What it appears is my employers want laid out specific facts by a health professional such as a psychologist or psychiatrist or even a GP, so far I only have a general but vague psychology report and my own list of specific symptoms.
The issue is that they have extracted a competency assessment from me before my psychiatric assessment, the very assessment that would have laid out specific conditions as per specific diagnosis, my psychology report won't do that as it is not specific to add or adhd.
So at present even though I may be deemed 'disabled' in general I need to have the same rights as any disabled person, there is no criteria to adhere to until I get a specific diagnosis, thus my employer is exploiting the situation and 'assessing' me prior to specific diagnosis itmas.
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Post by purplepower on Apr 19, 2014 5:11:44 GMT
I can see where your employer is coming from. "More support" is way too simplistic and it's right in my opinion to be (BUT should be supporting!) getting documentation from a psychiatrist. If I were you, I'd go along with the assessment. However I'd first put in writing your concerns in email first and then when you do have the psych assessment, you can show that assessment to your psych.
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Post by bluedrifter on Apr 19, 2014 6:46:15 GMT
@ contrarymary (lightbulb moment - i just remembered about the DWP and the access to work support stuff - details here )
I got this from a link via your link above ''The Hidden Impairments National Group (HING) was established in February 2010 initially to be used as a platform for DWP to learn from disabled people, medical practitioners, academics and disability specific organisations, focusing on the improvement of ‘end to end’ service provision for individuals with Autistic Spectrum conditions including: Asperger Syndrome; ADHD; Dyslexia; Dyspraxia; Dyscalculia and Speech and Language difficulties.
As the work of the group developed we recognised the benefits the resources we developed could bring to public sector and private companies in improving the journey to work for individuals with hidden impairments. As a result of this we have tailored a package titled 'Uncovering Hidden Impairment toolkit' to suit the majority of employers needs. The resource offers practical guidance, hints and tips on practical reasonable adjustments for individuals with hidden impairments.
Following a recent internal review of our group we are currently updating our resources for employers which includes our website.
If you would like to be contacted after we have completed the update of our resources please contact info@hing.org.uk with your organisation name, and contact details as well as the nature of your enquiry and we will be in touch at a later date.'' www.hing.org.uk/ It's the first time that I've seen adhd included on the Autism Spectrum.Are we sure that this is correct?
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Post by bluedrifter on Apr 19, 2014 7:31:25 GMT
I can see where your employer is coming from. "More support" is way too simplistic and it's right in my opinion to be (BUT should be supporting!) getting documentation from a psychiatrist. If I were you, I'd go along with the assessment. However I'd first put in writing your concerns in email first and then when you do have the psych assessment, you can show that assessment to your psych. Thanks, I've made two adjustments to my last post as I had got in a bit of a muddle typing it, It's still basically saying the same thing, except that I'd not mentioned that the OHSAS assessment and the message is that 'he feels' the employer needs to support him with this particular competency framework assessment.
Hang on I'll see if I can display it here.
As you can see nothing in particular has been laid out for my employer to comply with.
The black marks are only to protect the identity of myself and my employers business.
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Post by purplepower on Apr 19, 2014 8:07:52 GMT
Hmm your post is quite different now. Anyhow, does the report mention anything about medication because that could significantly change what you can / can't do and the last few lines of the report?
I know some will disagree with me on this but I've found it is possible *with medication* that I can do many of the things I struggled with before well, and give a good go at the rest. It's taken time though and hasn't happened overnight.
I also don't know about how you but for me it wasn't that I wasn't trying to say I just "can't" do something but rather that I wanted to do it but needed some support in order to do so. In my company, unfortunately my company didn't really help and I've managed to learn the hard way how to do these things but it's been very stressful.
The hope is of course the company will meet you half way.... Unfortunately that rarely happens.
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Post by purplepower on Apr 19, 2014 8:40:41 GMT
Most importantly of all, the Occ Health assessor should have been asking your psychiatrist for a report, not the GP.
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Post by bluedrifter on Apr 19, 2014 10:07:47 GMT
Yes purpleparlour, my posts are a bit off focus and I keep getting confused about who said what etc..
That's why I've put the report up here, to your statement about ''asking your psychiatrist for a report, not the GP. ''
Yes well, the OHSAS Dr said he will get the psychiatric report form my GP, when the psychiatric report is done, it's not done yet, I think the process is that the psychiatrist assess me, and sends a report to my GP, My GP then can show the report to the OHSAS Dr on request with my permission.
So the OHSAS Dr will get the report from the GP, but it will be the psychiatrist report from my medical records.
There's nothing about medication on that OHSAS report, all the information is there, I've only not included the names and addresses from the top of the letter, and put black marks on names and identifiable references.
EDIT ..Oh no wait, there is a second page, I'll post it up.
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Post by bluedrifter on Apr 19, 2014 10:20:40 GMT
Ok this is the whole thing, sorry I forgot about page two.
So only names, addresses and identifiable references about my employers business have been hidden from view.
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Post by purplepower on Apr 19, 2014 10:34:14 GMT
So right now your employer could be thinking you won't be able to do parts of your job that you may well be able to once you are on medication. If I were you, I'd be trying to get the OccHealthDr to contact the psych direct, copying your GP into the correspondence. Otherwise it will take longer for things to be sorted.
You are also off work for a long time. Can you try to push for an earlier psych apt so you can get back to work? It's possible/likely the psych will want you to do some tests so you may not even the diagnosis when you see them the first time.
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Post by purplepower on Apr 19, 2014 10:44:38 GMT
I know Mary mentioned DKL aadduk.proboards.com/user/1717 in her post but I would PM or email her if I were you to ask for a copy of the documents she made for her work. Also while you are off take some time to just write down the things that you find hard at work, and think about what you think may help so when you do go to see the psych you have something written down so you don't forget things... (been there done that!)
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Post by bluedrifter on Apr 19, 2014 18:11:40 GMT
purpleparlour as it happens the OHSAS Dr had advised me to get a copy of the psychiatrists report, by requesting a copy to have sent to myself, I can then bring it with me to my OHSAS appointment in June, as this will speed things up a bit, but you're right I may well have to do further tests before the report is finalised, so I'm going to bring the OHSAS report with me (the one I posted here) to the psychiatric appointment, and ask the psychiatrist if it's ok if the OHSAS Dr contacts directly, as you say including my GP into correspondences.
I don't think I'm going to be able to return to work until my management team are aware that my behaviour at work at certain times is related to my condition, and because I have made numerous complaints about not having the agreed frequency of 'supervisions' I am unable to cope with having issues unresolved that would be resolved at 'supervisions'.
The outcome of this is that I can't concentrate on my communication & teamwork as I'm distracted because I have issues that are not being resolved, as they would be resolved at 'supervisions'.
I have made so many informal and formal complaints about this.
So as I say the crux of the matter is that I'm being assessed about my competency in relation to teamwork & communication over periods of time where I have been unable to cope because I m stressed out about things that have not been resolved because I have not had 'supervisions' to resolve them.
My manager says that I will now be getting my supervisions at the agreed frequency, but my manager won't or can't see that she is still assessing my teamwork & communication as not meeting the competency assessment during periods of time when I was not getting my supervisions, thus of course I would not be acting correctly during those periods as I was stressed to the max, when if the 'supervisions' were in place at the correct frequency during the period that is being used to asses my competency then I would likely have met the required level of competency.
So when my manager says that I'll be getting my supervisions correctly now, then only now can my competency be assessed, as it's unfair to assess it when I was unsupported.
I hope I have not repeated myself too much in that post, it's just that I'm angry about it.
Thanks again for your advice it appears to be well measured.
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Post by purplepower on Apr 19, 2014 19:04:44 GMT
Like many on here, I've had my fair share of challenges at work so it's not hard to relate to what you are going through. In fact I'm still in the middle of a situation so I can't post about it yet. Perhaps the biggest difference between you and I though is that I was already on medication when things kicked off so as difficult as it was/is, it's a whole lot easier than trying to manage without medication.
I must admit I still wouldn't rule out going through the assessment now but not before putting in writing you are willing to do this on the consideration that you can take this assessment to your psych. The pysch could then validate the specific issues that are ADHD related, and perhaps give you an insight into any that aren't. I'm not sure if you are feeling well enough to do that though because you sound like you are at the end of your tether. The only thing I can suggest is keep focussing on what you can do. Best of luck!
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Post by bluedrifter on Apr 19, 2014 19:26:30 GMT
I know Mary mentioned DKL aadduk.proboards.com/user/1717 in her post but I would PM or email her if I were you to ask for a copy of the documents she made for her work. Also while you are off take some time to just write down the things that you find hard at work, and think about what you think may help so when you do go to see the psych you have something written down so you don't forget things... (been there done that!) Erm I'm kind of new here purpleparlour, Idk if I'm just being a bit silly, I feel awkward asking DKL for a copy of her documents that she made for her work, when I have never made a prior correspondence to DKL.
Perhaps I should just PM her a link to this thread and ask her to read it, that way I won't feel so awkward asking her about the documents because at least she will then know what's what?
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