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Post by marionk on May 19, 2016 9:59:07 GMT
What's the difference between PDA and procrastination? Is it yet another thing that is supposed to be only children that suffer? I'd never heard of PDA until yesterday in this post, but I had already noticed a distinct pathology to my avoidance of certain tasks, the intensity of which relates to the amount of stress associated with them.* In short, the more stress involved with a task, the worse I feel and the more I procrastinate. And the more I read the more I remember 'that was me, even at school,' and the way they suggest schools deal with such a child is exactly how they dealt with me!! www.autism.org.uk/about/what-is/pda.aspxAre PDA and ADD always hand in hand or am I the only one? *Even some basic tasks that I was avoiding, when I analysed possible reasons for the near panic attacks that even attempting to get on with them were causing, I realised that in my attempts to gee myself up to do them, I had made them very important, and so also very stressful. And I realise rather ruefully, that this is another example of my creating an inappropriate strategy for dealing with an ADHD problem.
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Post by clubby on May 19, 2016 14:58:01 GMT
Good question marionk. I think blaze knows a lot about PDA. I think procrastination is about delaying what the majority, or yourself, thinks should be done for all sorts of reasons while PDA is more about refusing to do what others ask because you are terrified that the demand is outwith your ability or control. Sometimes I procrastinate because I see things that others don't and I know it is the wrong time to act. Sometimes I procrastinate because I feel I am being pushed into an abyss. This would be PDA. The difference between the two is that someone with PDA will get the job done in their own way, but someone who is procrastinating will wait a while longer. My mother has PDA and is very productive but she will never do what she is asked.
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Post by Bee on May 19, 2016 15:06:17 GMT
I don't really have a problem with talking on the phone, I don't generally like it but I can get on with it without too much stress BUT now that we're trying to buy this bloody house, and the estate agents won't stop ringing all the time it's stressing me out! I'm finding that the more they ring me, the less likely I am to pick up the phone.
The more pressure someone puts on me, the more likely it is I'll just ignore it..
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alien
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Post by alien on May 19, 2016 15:27:51 GMT
Hi marionk – My daughter is diagnosed PDA – it's a specific presentation of autism. More comes with it besides the demand avoidance, but the avoidance is rooted in anxiety and it affects everything, meaning huge difficulty complying to direct instructions, for instance. If you've had an experience of extreme anxiety, where it's impossible for you to comply with whatever it is someone is asking (or you yourself are asking) – I think having PDA feels a lot like having that feeling permanently at the edge of your consciousness. It also comes along with the regular challenges with social interaction, sensory differences, etc that are intrinsic to autism. I've had quite a bit of contact with parents and professionals of children diagnosed with PDA, and haven't met anyone where I'd say you wouldn't think an ADHD diagnosis was unlikely. I think it's probable someone with PDA could actually be diagnosed with a raft of stuff, combining autism (especially the 'female' presentation), ADHD, anxiety disorder and ODD in one, plus that level of – it seems to me from my reading and understanding – permanent anxiety I described. Here's a longer explanation with contributions from people who hopefully know what they're talking about. Hope that helps.
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ananse
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Post by ananse on May 19, 2016 17:32:02 GMT
Procrastination can refer to many things without being PDA. PDA involves procrastination but it's probably more complicated than just procrastinating. According to Wikipedia, PDA is considered a form of autism by some - comparable to 'atypical autism' - however not an official diagnose.
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Post by marionk on May 19, 2016 21:00:41 GMT
Actually alien , that link was rather confusing, (as well as hard to read because it was so long and waffley) the child whose behaviour they were describing the most, seemed to fit ODD more than PDA. I guess I've got the wrong end of the stick, having only just discovered PDA as an officially named 'condition', but I had the impression that the task avoidance of PDA is due to extreme anxiety, but reading the page in your link, and this, it seems to be more about the dominant drive to be in control than any anxiety. Anxiety is mentioned frequently in the definition, but not in the descriptions of behaviour. Without any indications of anxiety, (as opposed to frustration, annoyance or aggression), it seems to me to be normal behaviour for anyone with a dominant personality.
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Post by alien on May 20, 2016 5:25:48 GMT
Aside from having the root of the controlling behaviour in anxiety and an autistic mindset (and it being applied universally rather than solely to authority figures), and some of the other differentiated diagnostic criteria such as fixations on people and intense imaginative play, I suppose the major difference between ODD and PDA marionk is that if you applied the recommended 'treatment' methods to a person with PDA that are advocated for someone with conduct disorder rather than directly addressing the anxiety, you'd likely find you ended up with someone with extreme mental health issues. Maybe I'm wrong. I can only speak as the father of one child with the profile, but recognising her anxiety and supporting her social development really help her. Taking an authoritarian approach infallibly pushes her away and makes her feel miserable and like a failure. Sorry you found the article waffly. It's a very complex subject. I did my best. ananse Don't believe everything you read on Wikipedia. ; )
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Post by clubby on May 20, 2016 7:31:02 GMT
Hi alien I am so interested to hear your experience of PDA and I agree with you wholeheartedly. My mother has PDA and now that she is in her mid eighties the roles have reversed and she is much more in the role of child, as age takes it toll. As a PDA mother she did good as she had so much control, but struggled more when her children married. Old age is a challenge because of the conflict between her emotional and physical need for care and her absolute determination to do it her way. On paper it sounds like the normal process of growing up or aging, but in practice it is extreme beyond belief and in some ways utterly inspiring. Despite the PDA, my mother had a very successful life and I am very proud of her. I think her trick was to find that place, time and time again, where she always had autonomy.
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Post by alien on May 20, 2016 9:47:06 GMT
Thanks clubby. I'll pass that on to my wife. She'll find it encouraging.
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Post by blaze on May 20, 2016 13:27:18 GMT
I don't really have time for decent reply- sorry-but for pda info look up the elizabeth newton centre, she's the person who named it & done most of the research & does most of the diagnosis in this country.
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Post by alien on May 20, 2016 15:12:03 GMT
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Post by ananse on May 20, 2016 21:03:00 GMT
Now this is almost a bit scary. I smurfed around a bit and read here and there - and this really is so completely me. Never before have I managed to identify with a syndrome - or a proposed syndrome - to this degree.
What really caught my attention was all these things with social skills that's so different from other types of autism. Interest in role playing and fantasy games, imitating other people's behavior in a creative way - ie not only copying - and no appearant signs of social anxiety such as poor eye contact or avoiding being in the middle - yet so totally insensitive to more subtle signals. I've often described myself like that. I may even to some appear extraverted.
In fact this could actually explain my whole set of difficulties and odd behaviors. All these traits that motivated my ADHD diagnose could actually be explained with this proposed syndrome. I've also actually noticed some traits in myself that remind of borderline personality disorder. These traits really make no sense and they don't seem to fit in with anything else. Manipulative behaviors - though always connected to demands - and some kind of social obsessiveness.
This would also explain why no kinds of normal treatment or therapy seem relevant for me. Structured environment and such. Making lists. I don't even want to think about making lists. And only the fact that there's someone proposing it makes it completely impossible.
This isn't exactly a 'genious disorder', nothing you write about in your CV. Some of the more well-known syndromes can have a more or less positive reputation. ADHD - creative and energic; AS - intellectually independant and not wasting time on unproductive activities. But this one... Shit... It's like a 'useless in general' disorder. Like Sluggish Cognitive Tempo or DAMP.
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Post by clubby on May 21, 2016 8:43:37 GMT
Hi ananse. I understand exactly what you are saying. I was raised by a mother with PDA and it is only very recently that I have been able to put a name to the group of symptoms and understand their underlying cause. I have enough of a genetic inheritance to understand the driving force behind PDA but it is not extreme enough in my case to have caused be disablement in that area of my life. No matter what is written about PDA, I can tell you from experience that there are immense benefits to the condition in certain areas. For example my mother is in her mid eighties and suffers from what many would call ill health, but she is ferociously independent and it is this factor that produces a determination and courage that is quite inspirational. I give my mother a lot of emotional support but I can never ever tell her what to do or help her to do anything without her being totally 100% in control of my every move and thought. However when she is emotionally stable she can move mountains all by herself and is an incredible person.
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Post by ananse on May 21, 2016 13:33:40 GMT
How about speaking a bit more about me? It's a dear subject of mine.
One thing mentioned was also high scores in autism quizes, however with whole sections of core symptoms completely missing. I'm so clearly not asperger but I also get those high scores.
This ADHD thing is similar, I meat all the innatentive and imulsive criteria to a very high degree, though there's very little of typical hyperactivity. Also I've noticed that people on the AD spectrum generally are not impaired to the degree that I am regarding avoidance and procrastination. Even if they're completely outside social and productive life, sometimes deep down in a swamp of drugs, even if they highly recognize those problems - it's still rarely to this degree.
More than anything it's this completely screwed up personality of mine. I'm serious, really really serious - I don't see this as neither positive or negative, but I'm the most weird person I've ever met or read about, at least where there's no mental illness involved. Most people who've met me would probably say the same about me. And it's in no way a role that I'm playing. People believe I have tourette but these are not tics, just a complete obliviousness of appropriate behavior. Of course I've learnt how things work but I don't feel it.
Finally, it's described as a typically female developement of autistic traits. I don't identify as transgender or felt uncomfortable with being of the male, neither have I any unusual preferences, I'm statistically 'normal'. I'm just not male. In fact I'm female and I've been aware of this my whole grown-up life.
This is really overwhelming, that these traits maybe are not just single isolated anomalies, but possibly related. To a degree where they even can be said to form a unique syndrom.
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Post by clubby on May 21, 2016 18:41:14 GMT
Hi ananse. All the things you are describing about yourself are Executive Function difficulties. Because we are all unique we all experience different difficulties in the Executive Function areas. So you are right to say that the syndrom will be unique to you. The important thing is to understand which problems you have which you cannot change and which problems are secondary problems which will go away with interventions. There are many people on this forum which share your feeling of being the opposite sex in some mental ways but not in other ways. Keep researching to find what you identify with amongst all the Executive Function disorders.
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Post by ananse on May 21, 2016 19:10:29 GMT
By 'unique' I wasn't referring to my personal uniqueness - more like the opposite, to a syndrom unique to other syndroms. And that my traits may be parts of an actual syndrom, not divergencies from other syndroms. This is the first time any diagnostic criteria has provided me with some answers, that there may be an underlying general logic to a bunch of bizarr traits.
I no longer understand the concept of EF. Lack of EF should be poor self regulation which is supposed to be ADHD. Those problems would logically be treated with stimulants, however, that doesn't always seem to work. Besides SCT is not classified under the EF umbrella (and won't be treated with stimulants).
Some of the things mentioned in earlier posts have more to do with communication than EF.
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Post by clubby on May 21, 2016 19:27:57 GMT
If a hyperactive cognitive tempo is classified as an Executive Function Disorder then Slow Cognitive Tempo should be also,
I swing from one to another.
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Post by ananse on May 21, 2016 21:25:11 GMT
Indeed, and that's the part I can't understand. The group that Barkley would diagnose SCT is recognized by total absence of hyperactivity/impulsivity. It's not that those traits are secondary - the're not there at all, more than among normal people. By his definition, the only existing form of ADHD is... ADHD. So called combined form. Hyperactivity is there even if not in any typical form.
There are attention deficits not in any way including hyperactivity, but then it's not ADHD. There are different levels of attention, and the level impaired in the SCT group is not the same one. These people are labelled ADHD because there are no other labels for attention deficits. However, this group performs normally when EF is measured - and they're not helped by stimulants.
But I personally can't really understand this. If those deficits have nothing to do with EF - what do they have to do with then?? And what is EF then? And what is EFD which seems to be very similar to SCT? And why is the EFD group not helped by stimulants?
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Post by Mouse on May 22, 2016 0:17:21 GMT
I don't really have a problem with talking on the phone, I don't generally like it but I can get on with it without too much stress BUT now that we're trying to buy this bloody house, and the estate agents won't stop ringing all the time it's stressing me out! I'm finding that the more they ring me, the less likely I am to pick up the phone. The more pressure someone puts on me, the more likely it is I'll just ignore it.. Tell them to email you and you won't be answering the phone
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ananse
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Post by ananse on May 22, 2016 6:48:55 GMT
I don't really have a problem with talking on the phone, I don't generally like it but I can get on with it without too much stress BUT now that we're trying to buy this bloody house, and the estate agents won't stop ringing all the time it's stressing me out! I'm finding that the more they ring me, the less likely I am to pick up the phone. The more pressure someone puts on me, the more likely it is I'll just ignore it.. Tell them to email you and you won't be answering the phone Yes.
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Post by vagueandrandom on May 22, 2016 9:40:53 GMT
FFS!! I just wrote a really long reply. . .and it's vanished! No time now, except Substitute male for female in my case
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Post by clubby on May 22, 2016 9:47:06 GMT
Indeed, and that's the part I can't understand. The group that Barkley would diagnose SCT is recognized by total absence of hyperactivity/impulsivity. It's not that those traits are secondary - the're not there at all, more than among normal people. By his definition, the only existing form of ADHD is... ADHD. So called combined form. Hyperactivity is there even if not in any typical form. There are attention deficits not in any way including hyperactivity, but then it's not ADHD. There are different levels of attention, and the level impaired in the SCT group is not the same one. These people are labelled ADHD because there are no other labels for attention deficits. However, this group performs normally when EF is measured - and they're not helped by stimulants. But I personally can't really understand this. If those deficits have nothing to do with EF - what do they have to do with then?? And what is EF then? And what is EFD which seems to be very similar to SCT? And why is the EFD group not helped by stimulants? I think the reason it is all so confusing is that the professionals who study mental health issues are constrained by healthcare systems already in place. They are trying to do their best by labelling symptoms as a group an then suggesting which medical or educational group is best suited to help. For example dyslexics are looked after by educationalists and adhd is more pyschiatric an so on. In practice we know that this does not work as the different specialists don't speak to each other and in fact they don't even understand each other's field. The whole system is archaic.
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Post by ananse on May 22, 2016 10:13:23 GMT
Gaining true knowledge here would be researching the underlying mechanisms. How different conditions may or may not be related to eachother. However, symptom relief is first priority - for reasons. Still, I believe many things would become easier if first learning more about the hardware issues.
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Post by vagueandrandom on May 23, 2016 12:45:18 GMT
I'm going to try to remember what I wrote before it vanished yesterday. . . and clubby touches on it (above) This thread has been dissecting ASD/ADHD into smaller and smaller sub-disorders. . .all of which are valid. . . BUT: my point was that the whole neurodevelopmental/diverse diagnostic criteria and terms used needs to be looked at as a whole. . . We know that ADHD has a significant crossover with ASD. . I personally am coming to believe that they're not 2 separate things. . . I'm happy to call it a spectrum with many traits and subdivisions. . I'm also not not entirely happy that ADHD is dx and treated within the MH service of the NHS. . .it's not a mental illness. . .it's just the way our brains work. . If anyone doubts this, they should read these boards. . .what else can explain people from all kinds of backgrounds who have such a lot in common? How many people discover their 'tribe' here? . . after being the outsider for years. . I agree that mental illnesses are often comorbid with ADHD. . .but 'standard' talking therapies are geared towards 'typical' depression. If anyone's read my posts on therapy, you'll know my views. . CBT without adaptation for ADHD has never worked for me. . .I've recently had to change IAPT counsellor because he thought that ADHD was caused, at least in part, by parental neglect. . and suggested that I just never learned how to control my emotions and how to react appropriately. . My new counsellor isn't an ADHD expert. . but she has a son with ADHD and can understand why I find some things difficult. . I would like a more holistic approach to be taken. . I know this is a bit of a tangent from PDA. . .
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Post by clubby on May 23, 2016 18:54:52 GMT
I agree vagueandrandom that there needs to be a holistic approach. The crossover between different diagnosis is too much to be ignored. In fact I think separating them is really damaging.
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Post by ananse on May 23, 2016 20:59:27 GMT
I wouldn't want that strictly for the sake of it. Not for the feeling of fellowship only. However, there seem to be an actual spectrum of related traits with a common cause. A wider definition of autism spectrum, this different kind of wiring we keep talking about. I'm not sure every single condition we classify as neurodevelopemental is a part of this, and my prior interest is defining the actual relation between these different conditions. Not to unite a powerful brotherhood of The Old Blood where some are included and some are not, but because clarifying the actual underlying relations is the key to understanding these things. I'm not sure that say Sluggish Cognitive Tempo or dyslexia are a parts of this actual spectrum, while other phenomenas like say synesthesia perhaps may be. Or not be. However, these things are yet to be explored.
First of all I'd like to make difference between typology and pathology. The whole discussion becomes confused when we argue about whether or not ADHD is a disorder. Well of course it is. By definition. As is asperger syndrom. However, I'd like to find out if there is more to this than just impairment. Only beacause we have common traits and there are certain gifts associated with these conditions, it doesn't necessarily mean that there are any positive sides at all connected to this spectrum. It may also be just a matter of compensation, like a blind person developing more sensitive hearing. The proposed connection between coocoo conditions and creativity may also have to do with the simple fact that these creative careers can be suitable for slackers. Not having to live up to demands of others... I happen to have this gift, whether or not it's connected to this ADHD thing - no employer asks for it, and even if they do, I can't get to work in time, I have no driver's license, I may not be able to stay sober. So they won't hire me. But I do have this gift and I may perhaps become a writer or a rock star or whatever. Or maybe not. And when I overdose, this won't be held against the idea of ADHD creativity.
With that said, my personal idea is that there really is something behind these conditions, a different kind of hardware, which in itself is neither good or bad. I would say it's got something to do with right-brain dominance, concrete and non-conceptual thinking, etc. Some things will be more difficult, other things will be easier for me than for normal people. Like a fish is good at swimming while a bird is good at flying. Extremes of this particular cognitive functioning will be hard to syncronise with a world that's built around a totally different kind of logic. Any way - if this is true, if these anomalies are expressions of a different kind of functioning, there should probably be special talents coming with it. In that case society actually has an interest in letting us develope optimally and in our own way, not only a responsibility towards us for our own sake.
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Post by clubby on May 23, 2016 21:38:44 GMT
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Post by ananse on May 23, 2016 21:48:50 GMT
I like when people agree with me!
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Post by alien on May 24, 2016 14:01:21 GMT
I think clubby you touch on something interesting when you say separating out conditions is dangerous. Maybe danger is a bit of a strong word, but the autistic community is making great inroads in getting others to accept autism is type of thinking, and getting the word 'condition' used in place of 'disorder'. Despite the crossover, there's also a lot more understanding and acceptance related to dyslexia, and few use the language of disability when referring to it. The term autism might be a loaded one, but it doesn't carry the focus on deficit and difficulty that come with 'dys' labels and every part of 'attention deficit (hyperactivity) disorder'. I agree with vagueandrandom about the mental health/psychiatric approach to diagnosing ADHD. In my experiences so far, psychologists seemed to have a greater understanding and empathy regarding these conditions anyway, but I can tell you I felt pretty uncomfortable when I went for my assessment and saw that letterhead of the Royal College of Psychiatry had the term 'mental illness' on it. I wish I had a save to draft button. I'm late for the school run and this is unfinished and possibly nonsensical. ananse, I'm glad you've identified with the diagnostic criteria for PDA – but as clubby says – there are plenty of positives. Just not many people are documenting them as it's all pretty one-sided for the moment. I'll try to finish/redraft this at later.
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Post by marionk on Jun 21, 2016 7:00:41 GMT
I'm afraid I lost interest in this thread when I realised that it (eta PDA) wasn't relevant to me or anyone I know, but now I'm not so sure that it doesn't apply to someone I know.
Can they appear perfectly normal? (Allowing pushy, dominant personality as normal.)
How noticeable is the anxiety aspect in practice? In the case study I read before, there was precious little mention of it. None in fact other than interpreting getting cross at losing a game as anxiety.
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