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Post by danherts on Apr 29, 2014 8:15:53 GMT
I thought of this document I'm not sure what use it is to you, rather than to provide an outside of the box point of view.
autismtheory.org/topotheory.html
Besides that particular document it's worth checking out the entire webpage.
I find it very interesting where the theory states (something like) that people who are descendants of people who lived in sparse areas of population are going to have more social disconnectedness, thus they don't have the same rapport with people who would descend from those who lived in the dense centre of populations.
So the further from the centre of a population ones ancestry stems from the more apparent they appear on the autism spectrum.
It may take a little while to properly absorb this information, I know it did for me, however once absorbed it makes more sense that I ever thought it would.
Hi bluedrifter, thanks for the link. This tallies up fairly well with my intuition on the subject. I've been looking into autism on and off for years, way before ADHD. I came across the Neanderthal theory of autism a few years ago which I think is part of the same site as the Aspie quiz. I can't remember what the theory says and what I've added on to it in my head, but I think it's feasible that during the glacial periods whilst our human ancestry were separated by ice at the narrow passage out of Africa, Neanderthals evolved to survive in the harsher climates of the Northern hemisphere and were much sparser populated than the 'early humans' that lived in Africa. When cooler periods again connected Africa to Eurasia the subspecies met again and hybridisation occurred which is apparent with Neanderthal DNA being present in Caucasians. I also wonder whether the place of this happening - the Fertile Crescent - could explain the dawn of civilisation and the change in the way humans had lived for the vast majority of our history. It's my intuition that many apparent mental disorders that cause great difficulty in the narrowly structured and individualistic society we live in can be explained as offering some (pre)historical evolutionary advantage.
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Post by danherts on May 1, 2014 23:32:23 GMT
Been on 72mg now for a few days, the experience with 54 was the same as before and that dosage just doesn't agree with me at all. Grumpy and lethargic on 54mg, since moving up to 72 I again have a modicum of motivation, I can still talk without stumbling over my words and I don't have the despair that accompanied the motivation I had on Elvanse. So thus far I'm glad I've given Concerta another chance.
The assertiveness I gained from Concerta before has re-emerged, I like it but I'm not sure it will stay with me or whether it is actually a good thing. The last few days I've prepared for another battle with a manager at work anticipating that I'm going to be pulled up on ignoring an instruction, I also felt impelled to chastise a traffic Policeman on his driving, bit more to it than that but I was faced with that unique to the Police egotistical infallibility and luckily knew when to walk off, although calling him a liar repeatedly as I did. I would apologise for that comment to any Police reading this, but I wouldn't mean it.
I'm finally also starting to live by some ideals I've wanted to for a while. Every time I shop at Tesco or something I feel dirty, I feel morally bankrupt for not at least stealing some of the stuff I've brought home. I feel complicit in environmental destruction, the shift of power from the individual to the corporation, the destruction of a centre of community and in animal cruelty amongst many other things.
I've systematically gone through everything we buy and researched where I can buy those things from a local independent company (or national coop/mutual) and in just a few days it's been a real eye opener. Veg can be had a lot cheaper from a few local shops that I didn't even know existed, had a good chat with the butcher about reaching a balance between ethical consumption and being poor, bought a bread maker and low and behold there's a mill up the road for a ready supply of flour. Weird how there's so many local businesses that I've driven past day after day and haven't even noticed them.
I've been offered a transfer to a new location at work, I'm dying to take it as I feel I need a change and logistically it's much more practical, but I'm afraid and looking for excuses not to take it. I was supposed to let them know yesterday morning but just let the deadline pass. I just can't make the decision because I know nothing about what life will be like at this new workplace. I keep going through it rationally over and over, but really it's just pure chance, it will either be a great, so-so or awful decision and there is no way I'll know unless I go. Hate decisions like this! Coin toss?
On the down side though, doing a few weird things. Anyone else feel like when the meds are working you have to relearn to do the things you've done for so long on autopilot? When doing certain things and thinking about doing them, it's harder to get it right or maybe you just have to be a bit more cautious than when you done it without even thinking about it. One example is driving, I've never had a problem driving and I'm no worse now but I find I doubt myself a lot more and tend to be more careful. Other stuff that was once routine is now done out of the proper order as I switch between rational and automatic actions.
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Post by bluedrifter on May 4, 2014 7:48:56 GMT
Hi danherts.
I can't comment on the influence of meds as I'm not under prescription (yet). Sometimes when I'm re-reading my posts they seem more 'matter of fact' I'm not sure if that's the correct term to describe them actually, perhaps 'lacking empathy' would be more accurate,(I hope you know what I mean)than other posts.
However I do enjoy reading your posts, perhaps you should have taken a little trip to the other location to get a feel for it.
I'm wondering in your medication experience or that of anyone reading, have you noticed any changes in nature, for example I often find it difficult to say nice things to people, and when I do it feels so false, like I'm putting it on, almost in a sarcastic way....
It's not that I don't want to say nice things to people, it's just that I never grasp the moment, when the opportunity arises I don't say nice things, by the time I gather my thoughts conversations have moved.
It feels odd to say nice things to people then out of context. For some unknown reason if something happens for example, someone spills a cup of coffee, what blurts out from me as a spontaneous comment is ''What the hell''.
When if I could freeze time, and have a moment to think I'd like to be able to retrain my brain to change reactions.
The problem is that I'm already overthinking it, and I'm worried that delays caused by any potential medication my cause further overthinking, so it's like a perception trap.
I had said all this to a psychologist last year. When I think that I over/reflect on my behaviour, or try and hold back, do the old count to ten routine, my focus then changes.
So my behaviour has not changed, my focus has changed, so that I'm now focused on my procedure or holding back, ''yes that's me holding back, I'm counting 1 2 3 etc...''
At this point I am no longer in a conversation, I'm not listening or contributing, I'm disengaged, It's like my clutch pedal had been utilised and the engine is no longer operating the wheels.
So basically the ten count, is, a way of shutting up, not a way of altering my communication ability, this is a problem because when I disengage I shut down, I don't seem to be able to 'slow down to think' rather I stop, almost like I have embarked onto a very minor depression, I might sit quietly for sometime.
The upside is that I might not have blurted out something that appeared rude, the downside is that I've simply 'turned off'.
I hope you don't mind me sharing this here.
Finally this is something else related to the paragraph above, often times when I'm praised at work, the manager or whoever say ''You're a valuable employee'' or ''a good worker'' I tend to reply why?
Apparently this is me not accepting praise, or being awkward. In fact what I'm asking is, how do 'they' conclude this praise. If a manager met me and had some examples of my work at hand, and stated this is evidence that you have made a positive difference here well done, then I would say 'thank you you're welcome'. The problem here seems to be that the praise I get is patronizing, it's not backed up with 'you're a good worker because.....' but only a generic 'well done you'. (without examples)
So I don't really accept praise unless it is backed up with examples, I know when I was a 'team leader' in a previous job, If I was going to praise someone, I'd do so at the end of a task, or during a task, IE you're doing well, or well done, that's really made a difference, because I have had time to consider it, and my action to it.
I would never be able to just praise someone because I want to make them feel good, and raise moral, unless there was substance for praise to be founded on.
So it's becoming more and more of an issue that I'm over reflecting, analysing behaviour exchanges, or I'm blurting out.
What I'm asking is do you think that any medication available that you know of, would likely stop the blurting out but increase the analysis of behaviour, (which is not a huge help) Or perhaps a medication might make 'small talk' more comfortable thus the blurting out & the analysis are both confronted by the medication.
I've got a inclination that I've not quite been able to explain this as well as I could have, it's because my focus keeps changing, it's a bit like changing the zoom on a telescope, the size of the issue that I'm trying to explain keeps changing, So I keep looking at tiny detail, big picture, tiny detail, big picture, like that, when other people are communicating with me, I'm never ever on the same focus, I'm either hyper-focused on a tiny detail, or I'm bombarded with information from a huge perception where I even end up considering how quantum mechanics or the limits of human perception have influenced outcomes.
So then to be confronted by someone saying 'well done you' when it's obviously an attempt to raise moral, is perceived by me in my twisted mind as an insult, a patronizing insult that is also a strategically positioned comment to let me know who's in charge.
When I try to verbally explain all this to a health professional I get mixed up, it comes out in a muddle, I end up just shrugging my shoulders and exhaling, they don't seem to 'take it in' that I am hyper-focusing and inattentive'ing Simultaneously.
The easiest way I can think to describe it is that I'm hyper-focusing on trying to focus, I'm hyper-focusing on my inattentiveness, the more I try to address this issues within my mind, the more I become entangled with it, so when I'm looking at a focused detail, perhaps reading an instruction, I know my mind is drifting, I then with my inner voice say to my mind no don't drift focus, focus focus focus, that's right ignore all those other things and just focus, I spend so long harnessing my focus, so I am hyper-focusing on that but then I still have not read the instruction.
What I do then is wait, I just look about aimlessly and then I quickly look at and read the instruction before it all starts again, so it's like I have to do it on the sly, I've discovered that having 'sneaky looks' at things helps, it seems to satisfy all elements of my adhd when I have 'sneaky looks' as then I'm not meant to be paying attention or not, I'm just having sneaky looks whilst permitting my inattentiveness to continue, but I know all along that I'm also hyper-focusing on this strategy.
I wonder if any of this strikes any chimes with you or any other posters?
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Post by danherts on May 4, 2014 18:18:02 GMT
I get where you're coming from. I'd like to reply to every point in your post but I use the forum on a mobile and mine recently broke leaving me with a spare one with a tiny screen. I can't reply to anything properly without having the post open to refer to, so from memory....
I once worked for two rich clowns and one of them left a load of books in the toilet he'd obviously procured at some American style convention about becoming a successful businessman and how to motivate your minions.
On one occasion I refused to do unpaid overtime and clown number one phoned up with the heavy tactics telling me I better bloody stay and that's that. Shortly after clown number two phones up probably after referring to his manuals and started saying 'Maybe you feel unappreciated and that's fine, maybe you're upset because this and that happened but perhaps if you could find it in the goodness of your heart....'
It was completely insincere and patronising and I had more respect for the ruthless arsehole I'd spoken to in the first place using good old fashioned boss-worker intimidation rather than thinking he can program me like some kind of idiot robot. I think it's totally valid to question that even though others might lap it up. You have to ask yourself his intentions though, is he trying to make you feel better or trying to manipulate you for his own benefit?
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Post by bluedrifter on May 5, 2014 7:47:01 GMT
Manipulation all the way, a manager quite recently said ''this is the best team that we've ever had here'' when I looked at the others they were all chuffed to have heard this.
Can it just be me that was thinking, 'could you explain what you mean?' I mean, let's consider the work of other teams and make a comparison, then I thought and managed to restrain myself by squirming in my seat and curling my toes, that if I now question this I'll appear as Mr Negative.
So even though I have limited rapport with my communication, I see this 'social interaction' as if I'm watching a play, my communication is then a review of the play, so even though I'm sat there, I'm not in it, and yes there is nothing wrong with a manager making a positive comment, though the comment would have been better placed as'' I like this team because A B C and D.
I think the others get a reaction from their neuropeptides or neurotransmitters that makes them feel good, thus they don't want an explanation, so the manager may or may not know that the comments have such an effect that it's a form of 'control' and also a display of authority.
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Post by danherts on May 10, 2014 23:49:59 GMT
I never got an opportunity to fully respond to your post as I got called away and just clicked post on the last response. I'm still trying to figure out the answer to this myself and I won't know until I settle on the meds and get to a stage where I'm not analysing whether the meds are doing what I want. Before I started treatment I thought if I could just rid myself of the anxiety and analysis things would just fall into place. I figured I could function socially on alcohol so if I could find something that didn't mess me up but got rid of the anxiety in the same way I'd be alright, but I was blind to the reality. I've only realised since starting meds that alcohol just released all the stuff I'd learn to keep in, that is why the anxiety is there, because I know that if I act the way I feel like I only offend and confuse. Because I didn't care when I was drunk I thought nobody else did either but I look back and can't believe how polite some people have been in putting up with me. Elvanse made me too aware of the reality and more withdrawn, Strattera I wasn't on long enough to comment and Concerta I think makes me just not care as much. I can articulate what I want a lot better which helps and the analysis has reduced because i'm not so bothered but ultimately I've realised I've got to stop trying to be what I think people want me to be. On top of the social problems being inattentive brings I've got to contend with the fact that my world view is so far removed from the average NT. I can't stomach talk of football, TV shows or incessant consumerism that a lot of people feel the need to distract themselves with. Anything else just ends in a difference of opinion. So I've just got to accept that I am the way I am and instead of trying to mould myself for others, instead try to act in a way that I am happy with. Work on things I'm not happy with like negativity and being hot tempered but allow the rest to come through.
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Post by bluedrifter on May 11, 2014 11:09:10 GMT
Thanks for the reply danherts.
About not getting along with NT's, I'm the same.
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Post by danherts on May 30, 2014 23:32:25 GMT
Back to the question you asked about being more friendly to people or able to make positive comments, I do get this on Concerta.
It's weird, I've had a few days off the meds and often found myself in a conversation with nothing to say thinking 'I should probably say something' but whatever I say will be false and contrived and if it's a question I won't actually care about the answer.
Like yourself this is down to spending more time analysing the conversation rather than actually being part of it., and the thought process involves means the timing is all out. I feel Concerta does make conversation more natural through the combination of having a better memory of things I've done and being more able to articulate thoughts as well as not analysing so much.
Doesn't mean I'm in anyway fixed though and there are obviously some subtleties about my oddness that I don't recognise, two phone calls yesterday and the people I was speaking to had a little chuckle when I was saying goodbye, I've no idea what I done to amuse them but must have a weird way of saying bye.
So I'm back on the trusty 32mg + 5mg Ritalin if required. 72mg + 10mg worked well but I have worries about wearing my teeth down as I'm grinding in my sleep and wiggling my jaw all day.
Not doing too bad at keeping on top of admin stuff but anything physical died down a lot as time on 72mg went on. Blood pressure came in high at docs so wasn't allowed to up to 90mg and beyond just yet.
Jaw issues finally subsided back on the 32 but still a bit of night grinding. If that stops I'll go back up again but if it's unavoidable looks like the train stops here unless I can convince doc to let me take both MPH and Elvanse.
Is this the longest titration ever?
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Post by bluedrifter on Jun 1, 2014 11:18:08 GMT
Thanks for answering my question danherts.
I do tooth grinding too, the funny thing is I thought I had more of a inattentiveness & spontaneous (inability to inhibit thoughts from blurting out) type of ADD, I never really saw any hyperactivity.
The more I think of it the more I remember, as a teenager I was always way more active/talkative/full of beans than the people I knew, in the morning they'd often say ''ffs it's abit early yet'' so I had totry and sync my mood with theirs, that's when I go the other way and get inattentive, I don't seem to have a middle bit.
I'm now more aware that when I'm sitting I am rubbing my teeth together, I used to grind them and have tried to stop doing so, now it just manifests as a light teeth rubbing exercise, now & again I catch myself doing it, I've also noticed that when I'm sitting 'relaxing' I'm picking the inside of my thumbs with my middle fingers, it's a bit like making the 'ok' sign but not using the first finger on the thumb but the second, that's my thumb picking style, though I don't break the skin, it's just a light scraping.
When I went to see the psychiatrist I forgot to mention all this, there's so much I'm remembering & realising that I am possibly hyper too, just not in the running about in a wild rage like we see some children do on TV, for me the hyper part is more like ticks, or habits, I feel like one of those cats that are seen, they appear still and placid but if you watch the tail it constantly taps the surface of whatever the cat is on.
If I stop the tooth rubbing or finger picking I then get up and start aimlessly walking about, so I've got it well hidden, the problem is it's so well hidden that when I go see the psychiatrist I tend to forget, I've not had to confront all this for so many years that I've partly forgotten what it is.
Now that I've only had one psychiatry appointment so far, it was just answering some basic questions and was given some self assessment sheets to fill in WEISS self rating scale I think it was, so no in depth discussions have taken place, yet since I returned home, I've become more aware of what I'm doing to supress ADHD, and I've remembered childhood problems that I had previously not recalled.
Sometimes when people ask me things I don't answer them very well, not because I'm ignorant, simply like you say, I can't be bothered, I don't have any interest in informing people of things, it's either none of their business, or I want to tell them to F*** off, I usually end up giving them the shortest answer possible, hopefully they will get the message and stop talking, they usually do, this is the main reason I am not socially popular. PS I sometimes close my eyes as I answer, I don't know why, it might just be a another way of saying 'stop interacting I'm not interested' or it could be because I simply don't like eye contact, and I want them to know that I can't read body language or gestures too well, there's also a fair chance that if I stop listening and just see their lips moving I might burst out laughing.
Being able to write this here is helping me because I can get some perspective on the whole thing and can then deliver the information to the psychiatrist with more clarity.
I wish I could just say 'Talk to my psychiatrist' instead of being so standoffish.
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Post by danherts on Jun 6, 2014 23:10:16 GMT
Had to get some stuff done one day so took some left over Elvanse as it's much better in that department. The trismus had come back before that so I was trying to come off meds completely and haven't taken anything for the past two days and had two med free days before the Elvanse.
Coming off the meds has been a bit of a revelation and I don't know if there is some residual MPH effect but it's actually been okay. I've been doing silly shit but it's nice to remember what I'm actually like.
I've been less anxious and have no doubt been a right pain in the arse for everyone being my usual verbally careless, negative and nitpicking self but for the first time I don't actually care.
People have repeated to me things I've said that have obviously been told to them by someone else as they weren't present at the time - so a conversation about Dan being out of order or what have you has obviously taken place - but it's not bothered me in the slightest.
Still having a battle with a particular manager at work that is going well and I've recruited a few allies as I've tended to not be so withdrawn.
Work relationships have been more of a problem since starting meds and I wasn't sure if a load of changes or the meds were responsible for me starting to feel I had more difficulties there. Hopefully I'll continue to feel how I do now and felt pre meds and if so stop taking them on work days or just take a lower dose so it's not such a shock to the system taking them on days off.
I'm now inclined to go back to Elvanse as I've realised I was being proactive and making progress and that's stopped, though maybe how I feel now will fade or maybe the grass is just always greener...
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Post by danherts on Jun 26, 2014 21:31:58 GMT
So officially back on Elvanse, 50mg. I had to rationalise my way out of the depression I got the last time but seem to be out of the other side.
Doesn't feel as effective as last time though and a little bit hit and miss. However it's nice to have both a good state of mind and motivation at the same time.
I've been off work sick so haven't had to deal with people too much but had a 'thing' this morning which caused some trepidation but ended up going well with me only later mentally chastising myself for interrupting too much, but I need to focus on the positives.
Unsure now whether to request to go up to 70mg again at the next appointment. I want that extra bit of motivation but I'm wondering if the effects of this dosage are more natural and going higher is just asking for better effects than I really need in exchange for heightened side effects.
Either way I'll be asking for an evening booster. It wears off around 6pm and I'm useless, could be problematic though as I'm pretty sure all my chopping and changing has the psychiatrist certain I'm a drug seeker. I was asked to 'return' two months worth of Concerta and Ritalin when I again asked to swap but I'm still finding dribs and drabs in drawers all over the place.
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Post by danherts on Sept 23, 2014 23:29:58 GMT
Two and a bit months since I've updated this. I wasn't going to bother anymore but I'm bored.
I've been on Elvanse most of the time, asked to try 30mg morning and afternoon but it didn't work as the first 30 didn't do anything. Then I thought I'd split a 30 and 50 to make two 40's (to take on different days as max dose is 70) but there's more powder in the 30 so more fillers and no accurate way to divide it.
I started dissolving it on water after reading about it. Tried a load of different combinations that were mostly unsatisfactory or I wouldn't remember second dose in time and then thought I'd just ask for dex as 40 seemed a better morning dosage and it isn't available as a tablet.
Then I made an assessment of what's happened since being on Elvanse and realised I'm just a robot, it gives me all this energy to do the stuff I need to do but I'm arguing with my partner, neglecting my kids and after coming off it for four days (where I ate and ate and ate) realised I was anxious.
Again went back to 32mg Concerta with 7.5mg ritalin booster and happy again, vocabulary came back, felt more self confident and less anxious but fatigued. It is much better for work but not for getting stuff done at home.
Also I got drunk for the first time in ages but drinking the same amount, I hadn't realised how much Elvanse curbed the manic effect of alcohol on me.
So now I want to alternate these meds depending on what I have to do, can't see anyone else doing this but hopefully doc will go for it. Never got my appointment that was supposed to be earlier this month so will no doubt be a long wait by the time I get round to booking it in myself.
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