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Post by marionk on Jun 4, 2017 5:48:46 GMT
So I clearly need lots of protein, and more fat than is is a portion of oily fish.
I'm already not losing any more weight though, so if I increase my fat intake that's even more calories, so hmm, tbh I'm no longer sure that calories have got anything to do with weight gain or loss. I'll give it a go anyway, and time will tell. I don't think it's going to matter, as I hadn't been putting on weight when I had been eating more fat before.
Will it/did it actually help me lose weight even? What on earth can I cut down on if it doesn't?
And why the bleep does my body need me to eat more fat to sleep decently, why can't it just use up some of the fat in my body already?!
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Post by marionk on Jun 4, 2017 6:29:43 GMT
Ok this is nuts . . .
Needing more stimulant neurotransmitters to be calmer, while it's a proven fact with ADHD, is still a tough one to get people generally, including many doctors, to accept.
That caffeine and nicotine a) aren't as potent as the scaremongers make out and b) have varying degrees of effect according to individuals metabolisms also has research to back it up, once you get away from the popular press and wagging fingers.
Protein and it's importance for brain function, mood etc is actually mainstream and well documented in the US, as well as being well known among certain groups of people in the UK. It's just not filtering through into medical legislation in the UK.
But fat helping sleep? Nada. Worse than nada.
I don't get it. I'm sure it's not co-incidence, and also that I can't be the only one that this affects.
I appreciate that it might only be the case for some types of ND, and therefore only so for a minority, and so get lost in the statistcs, but NOTHING to back me up, even as special case findings . . .
How can I find out WHY it helps if no-one else thinks it does? :*(
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Post by marionk on Jun 4, 2017 6:46:32 GMT
AHA! putting in fat and sleep was a washout, but add ADHD and I get useful information!!!
From additudemag:
Fat, Fish Oil, and ADHD Brain Power
“Fats make up 60 percent of the brain and the nerves that run every system in the body,” says William Sears, M.D., an associate clinical professor of pediatrics at the University of California, Irvine, School of Medicine. “The better the fat in the diet, the better the brain will function.”
Most important to brain function are the two essential fatty acids found in fish oil: linoleic (or omega 6) and alpha linolenic (or omega 3). These are the prime structural components of brain cell membranes, and an important part of the enzymes that allow cell membranes to transport nutrients in and out of cells. Western diets contain too many omega-6 fatty acids and too few of the omega 3s, which are found in cold-water fish (primarily salmon and tuna), soybeans, walnuts, wheat germ, pumpkin seeds, and eggs. Flaxseed and canola oils are good sources of omega 3s.
“Individuals with ADHD who have low levels of omega 3s will show the biggest improvement in mental focus and cognitive function when they add more of these healthy fats to their diet,” says Richard Brown, M.D., associate clinical professor of psychiatry at Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons.
Phew!
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Post by marionk on Jun 4, 2017 6:53:40 GMT
Oh!Now this is plain wrong!! I read a decent technical article the other day, saying that there was something (from fat) that the brain worked on that was actually a better source of energy for it than glucose, so they clearly don't only use glucose!! Maybe 'normally' means a screwed up overly carbohydrate fuelled body! eta 'ketone bodies' = brain fuel
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2017 0:38:35 GMT
Lactate?
It's a wonderful mystery. I wish we had better diagnostics!
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Post by marionk on Jun 8, 2017 5:32:53 GMT
No, lactose is broken down into glucose, so as far as energy for the brain goes, it's the same thing. I found the name later and editted it into the end of the last post, so I could find it easy when I needed to remember. Ketone bodies The word you wanted isn't quite 'diagnostics' either, but I know what you mean. Research tools, investigative techniques? I'm not sure there is actually a word for it! My sleep has 'relapsed' again, into being quite broken. Not getting a time when I can't get back to sleep again, (not before it's light anyway) but pretty horribly broken, so that by the time it's light, I'm fed up of trying to get back to sleep and waking up again. Twice since I got back, I have had a decent chunk of sleep, but I can't figure out why. I haven't actually managed to do fried bread and eggs again, but I have increased my fat intake, but it's not helped. The other time it happened, I had had a large glass of wine, middayish, otherwise nothing unusual. Maybe it's total caloric intake? I hope it's not a choice between losing weight and sleeping decently!! I must try and get back to eating like I did before I went on holiday, which reminds me, I need to chase up the embassy! eta Coffee! I haven't tried drinking oodles of coffee again. eta2 Chocolate is another possibility, slightly less likely but still worth a try. Chocolate was not reliable, would help with something wake definitely, sleep? need to check back, for a few days, then not be so effective. But then, even before I went away, I wasn't regularly getting decent chunk of sleep, only some nights. Nah I don't think it's chocolate, I haven't eaten chocolate much at all for months . . . but there was that very chocolatey fudge but when was that? before or after?
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Post by marionk on Jun 8, 2017 11:58:08 GMT
I was eating a lot of ground almonds before, too, and I've just found that inositol is found most in nuts, beans, grain and fruits, and I haven't been eating much of any of them lately, so maybe that's what's lacking.
I've also had a bit of a headache, and I haven't really had one, other than from eyestrain, in years.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2017 12:30:54 GMT
I think I'm long overdue some delicious chocolate flakes!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2017 12:33:22 GMT
Was it you that was looking into 23andme? I don't suppose you've done it yet? Guessing about your body is much more fun than having a solid baseline I suppose
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Post by marionk on Jun 8, 2017 15:35:00 GMT
Mmmm, ooonly the cruuumbliiest, flaaakiest chocle-e-ete . . . Shoo! Shush! Go 'way! Yes I was looking into 23andme kit, but it's done with a lot of saliva, and my teeth are c*** so I'm worrying about gingivitus and caught bits of food dna. I need to contact them and ask, but I've had too much else happening to get around to it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2017 15:46:26 GMT
Dare I make a suggestion, Marion?
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Post by marionk on Jun 8, 2017 16:13:11 GMT
Not if it involves some form of milk chocolate.
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Post by marionk on Jun 10, 2017 6:20:25 GMT
Dare I make a suggestion, Marion? The gene test? If gingivitus or food residue messes it up, I will only have one more attempt (although I would hope this that that's only with 23&me and other people use different labs), but also, genes won't tell me what is missing from my diet.Things it could be: Chocolate Apricots coffee, lots of fat/cream eggs, lots of cheese beans Things that it's definitely not in: Whey shake including green tea extract Oily fish meat orange juice pretty sure it's not almonds either, nor coconut Most things that are supposed to help with sleep, mood and mental function are found in meat or oily fish, so it must be something less common. /me goes back to look at 'supplements' list
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2017 17:08:19 GMT
I agree. They may tell you, however, that regardless of how much x or y you eat, you will always be deficient. Have you looked into intrinsic factor? My suggestion was to try and tell yourself, 'on this one occasion, I'm going to allow this task to be imperfect.' Silicon Valley are, allegedly, famed for saying something similar. "Done is better than perfect." The selfish part of me wants you onboard so we can research stuff together
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Post by marionk on Jun 10, 2017 23:32:05 GMT
I will get the dna thing done some time, but this deficiency I'm trying to track down is definitely one that can be sorted.
Before I went away, something was enabling me to sleep a whole night through occasionally. I had assumed it was simply due to eating more protein, and would settle down once I had got into a more settled routine, but for weeks since I came back I didn't get a single decent night's sleep, whatever I did. But then one night, I slept through again, and so I've been trying to pin down what it is that gets me sleeping properly.
For various reasons I'm positive it's dietary, and I think it's probably eggs, rather than fat, but it could be both. If it is eggs, then that suggests that it's to so with inositol, which in turn suggests that my body doesn't make enough, even though we are supposed to be able to. This in turn would implicate faulty enzyme production which would be due to various genes, but would such obscure enzymes genes be picked up by any of the algorithms currently used?
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Post by marionk on Jun 14, 2017 3:09:55 GMT
Something that didn't help seemed to be sugar/carbs in the evening, but I couldn't quite confirm if it was any sweet stuff or fruit juice. Turns out it's vitamin C rather than fruit juice, and maybe sugar has an effect too, but vit C is definitely bad, at least after six o'clock. I woke up again, not long enough after getting to sleep, and after a fair while of lying awake hoping to go back to sleep, I realised it wasn't happening and gave up. That hasn't happened in ages now, and it's been really bad tonight, I've done a load of researching stuff, and faffing about with wordpress too, as well as played mahjong a few times, and now it's nearly light and the dawn chorus is in full swing, and I'm still not sleepy again. It's as bad as it has ever been! Thinking it was sugar, rather than fruit juice, that had caused poor sleeping, and realising I hadn't had any fruit or juice today, and being thirsty, I had a vitamin C tablet in water before I went to bed . . . I really came on here to post a web page addy to read later though. www.hypoglycemia.asn.au/2011/the-biochemistry-of-insomnia/
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Post by marionk on Jun 15, 2017 8:38:10 GMT
Sometime before I posted about inositol, I had more than an inkling it was eggs that were important, and even when I realised it was the fried bread and eggs, I had a vague idea it might not be fat, but I don't seem to have posted it here. :S
It's definitely eggs, though, I don't know what's so special about them but it's undeniable.
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Post by marionk on Nov 5, 2017 14:46:32 GMT
Adenosine, makes you sleepy by binding to A1 receptors. Caffeine keeps you awake by binding to A1 receptors thereby preventing adenosine from binding. This page backs up my idea that adenosine IS made by the breakdown of ATP for cellular energy in the brain, but only when glycogen reserves are depleted.That fits with my overactive (ADHD) brain theory. I seem to have too much Adenosine, but caffeine doesn't seem to block it either. That last bit is really baffling, but I'm not sure it's relevant, at this stage of figuring things out. I keep coming across mentions of purines, which are associated with gout, which it turns out is also to do with adenosine metabolism! I don't have gout so I don't think I will find out anything relevant to my problems by reading up on that side of things either. Maybe I should look to see if anything else causes daytime sleepiness. Thinking 'out loud' now: I produce adenosine much too quickly for the deaminase to break down to normal level at the normal rate, until my brain finally shuts off for sleep. If something could boost the deaminase, so that I could stay alert longer, it would possibly also mean that it would break down too fast when I do go to sleep, even at night, thereby making it harder to stay asleep for long. This is also one of my problems so maybe my deaminase IS more active than NT's. It needs to be more active in the day, but slow down again at night. Maybe coffee in the morning is a good idea! It won't (AFAAK, I think) affect the adenosine deaminase, but it should inhibit the adenosine . . . except that it doesn't, not for me or anyone in my family . . . bummer. Maybe keeping blood sugar/ketone bodies levels higher, so that brain glycogen doen't get depleted so that the adenosine gets recycled more, so doesn't accumulate . . . I think this works! I have effectively been doing this the last few days. Although, ironically, not eating much at all in the daytime hasn't been detrimental, the little nibbles of chocolate and/or nuts must be keeping my brain going better than three meals a day. Fingers crossed this isn't just wishful thinking, and continues to stave off EDS.
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Post by marionk on Nov 18, 2017 2:40:23 GMT
Just recently, I have noticed that I sometimes get really tired just after eating something.
Googling 'sleepy after eating', most results are about blood sugar swings, but it seems way too fast for that, and tbh doesn't feel like low BS either. Years ago, I had been having problems with tiredness a couple of hours after breakfast, and just eating a little of almost anything would sort it very quickly, but I sorted it more permanently by changing my breakfast to museli, so I still think it was BS related back then, but remembering about the BS swings theory, I also remembered reading that that theory was wrong and that it was really due to a lack of serotonin, and that eating just about anything raised serotonin levels back to normal again. And even though I have just realised that would make no sense with my current problem, because it's the exact opposite that's happening now, I added 'serotonin' to the search terms, but now I get stuff that says we get tired after eating because of all the tryptophan we've just eaten, turning to melatonin . . . It does sort of fit with what's happening now though, but it's very fast, and doesn't always happen. Then again, a week or so ago, I realised that my insomnia was due to my not having enough melatonin, so to make sure my body had enough of the 'ingredients' for melatonin, I took a good B complex tablet and a magnesium and zinc tablet, thinking that would set me up ready to make melatonin that evening, instead it sent me to sleep almost immediately, so I'm actually really liking the tryptophan to melatonin theory. Remedying an underlying deficit. Triggering melatonin production even in the daytime is weird though.
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Post by marionk on Dec 4, 2017 8:39:55 GMT
Oops, no, not liking the melatonin theory at all now. I have major problems keeping enough melatonin in my system to get to sleep, even in the evening when production is at its highest, so I don't see how it could be melatonin making me sleepy in the daytime.
On a different topic: Does anyone here (@boost ?) know if any CYP2D6 allele is linked to adhd?
It seems like its a good candidate, but there is so much research into how the enzyme affects drugs (dosage especially) that I'm finding it hard to find much at all about the actual working of the enzyme, and even less about how variations of the controlling genes affect anyone. (Other than fast metabolising variants causing morphine overdose.)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2017 23:21:03 GMT
What are the signs and symptoms of adenosine monophosphate deaminase 1 deficiency?
In many people, adenosine monophosphate deaminase 1 (AMPD1) deficiency does not cause any symptoms. The reasons for this are unclear. People who do have symptoms typically have muscle pain (myalgia) or weakness after exercise or prolonged physical activity. They often get tired more quickly and stay tired longer than others.
How might adenosine monophosphate (AMP) deaminase deficiency be treated?
Treatment in the form of exercise modulation is recommended.[1] Unfortunately, there is no medical cure for this disorder. One possibility for management is the administration of D-ribose.
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Post by marionk on Dec 5, 2017 9:49:42 GMT
I can see why it could cause tiredness, but I don't see how/why it would cause muscle pain. It's interesting that deficiency often doesn't cause symptoms, and I came to the same conclusion because, just because adenosine isn't getting broken down, doesn't necessarily mean it will build up excessively, as it can be rebuilt into ADP or ATP. I already wrote that research indicates that adenosine only builds up once glycogen stores are depleted, but even that's a bit over simplistic because among other things it's ignoring blood sugar levels and ketone bodies/ketosis. So, as glucose can most definitely provide the energy to rebuild ADP into ATP (Krebb's cycle), it must also be preventing (by reducing ADP levels) ADP from being broken down to adenosine. It probably explains why we crave sugar/carbs particularly when we're tired though. I'm currently back to melatonin as the more likely culprit of daytime sleepiness, as this article caught my attention Dietary factors and fluctuating levels of melatonin, particularly this bit: "Even so, the influence of daytime diet on the synthesis of nocturnal melatonin is limited, however, the influence of the diet seems to be more obvious on the daytime levels." I have yet to read the rest of the article though. I actually tagged you to see if you know of any link between CYP2D6 and ADHD, thanks for your input though.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2017 16:33:56 GMT
After I posted it, I realised we'd already had this conversation once. Doh! I don't have anything useful to hand on 2D6
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Post by marionk on Jan 23, 2018 1:58:50 GMT
So . . . inability to digest casein + 'low level' allergy to it explains just about everything, including my need for more protein than most people and it's linked to ADHD too. I bet they'll eventually find that the link is causal, that it prevents adhd type brains from completing their development in youth/permanently, but then again, it's quite a likely candidate for being hushed up. Remember milk in schools? and "A pinta per person per day."? Gluten is probably implicated too, unless casein indigestability alone is enough to cause 'leaky gut'. "Six slices a day is the well balanced way!" At least they didn't make baby formula out of it though!
Oh, ofc casein alone is enough to cause increased intestinal permeability, or it (cows' milk) would't affect otherwise unweaned babies!
The only things I haven't found the connection to, is the overproduction of cyp1a2, and the apparent lack of 2d6, but maybe casein and or gluten peptides are the substrate/inducer for 1a2, and something is hovering at the edge of my memory, about opioids and 2d6, and opioid effect of casein peptides, maybe there's a link there somehow.
For now though, I am too hacked off that I have to stop eating dairy, to really look into it any further.
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Post by marionk on Jan 30, 2018 22:30:20 GMT
Ok, now this is spooky: looking for something that could help with the breakdown of casein, I find dipeptidyl peptidase iv, so looking to find a natural source of it, I find a references saying DPPiv is adenosine deaminase. "Adenosine deaminase" rings bells very loudly so I poke around to jog my memory properly and find I have already posted about it further up this page (Nov 5).
Then to cap that, I spot a research snippet, saying that they are looking into milk protein as a source of adenosine deaminase inhibitor. It's already got stuff that does that, they're just looking for ways to isolate it! So not only does partially digested casein (milk protein) send you to sleep (casomorphine) , but whey protein also inhibits the breakdown of adenosine making you even sleepier! No wonder babies sleep after a feed!
I think I'll give up on all milk products, not just cows' milk!
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Post by marionk on Jan 30, 2018 23:13:01 GMT
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Post by marionk on Feb 4, 2018 10:39:31 GMT
Finding that there is a correlation between casein digestion enzyme and ADHD, I remembered that one of the effects of gluten sensitivity is that the body produces antibodies that can't tell the difference between the gluten that's got into the bloodstream, and the thyroid, so damage the thyroid. This made me wonder if perhaps partially digested casein might cause antibodies to attack some other part of the body, perhaps the pre-frontal cortex, which might explain how it causes ADHD.
Well, it does make for confused antibodies, but they attack the thalamus, and googling thalamus doesn't bring up anything that looks remotely connected with ADHD.
So I dropped that idea a bit, still thinking about it though, wondering if it's just that there hasn't been enough research into the effects of leaky gut peptides and related antibodies, after all, only celiac disease has made it to official guidelines so far, despite masses of evidence saying that both gluten and cow's milk protein cause a whole range of problems. At the end of the day, it's all pretty cutting edge stuff.
Today, I look up something entirely unrelated, well, not directly, (did quetiapine make me sleepy by affecting my adenosine levels), and it mentions hypothalamus, and I remember that some time ago, I got the distinct impression that ADHD as well as sleep problems, were all connected to misfunctioning of the HPA axis. Hypothalamus, thalamus . . .
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