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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2013 2:55:00 GMT
You will be one of the gang here whatever the outcome of any diagnosis says Let's not forget... you still haven't actually seen an ADHD specialist. Is this psych in a position to be 'diagnosing' you? He sounds like a salesman with a medical degree. Is it possible you get so much general aggro you may be letting this slide a little? These people aren't experts of anything bar their own gut feelings which is based on experience or prejudice. If you happen to have run into the latter, you are never getting any ADHD meds from this person. Is it also possible that whilst your recent stress has highlighted this stuff, you've always had various difficulties which couldn't easily be attributed to anything? If you are happy with the outcome from this meeting, I'm sure everyone here is happy for you. No psych or professor of whatever bollocks knows what it's like inside your head, no matter what throne they appear to be sitting on You might wanna ask for a sleep study too. There's no obvious link to ADHD, playing that angle, so maybe he'll go along with it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2013 2:55:58 GMT
I deleted that reply once too (remembering the 'is it truthful, is it nice' thing) but I ended up typing the same thing out again!
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Post by contrarymary on Dec 11, 2013 3:48:24 GMT
computermandanhow many times have you read threads with people struggling with a GP saying "you have traits but not enough to refer you to a psych"? this seems to me to be the next step up and you are stuck with a general psych if he is, as he says, not qualified to diagnose ADHD and agrees you have traits of ADHD he should be referring you to someone who IS qualified to diagnose ADHD, otherwise he is ipso facto diagnosing you as not having ADHD, which he is not qualified to do. i don't know how you take things forward and extracate yourself from the hands of this psych. who seems to be wanting to treat you for what he sees as - coincidental? - depression and anxiety.... is that a diagnosis then? (does he know that having these alongside "ADHD traits" is even more indicative of a need for an assessment by someone who knows what they are doing? and last time he put it all down to not having enough sleep because of being anxious, this time it's less-sedating medication?) have you read "you mean i'm not lazy crazy or stupid?", cos it sounds to me as tho you are managing to convince yourself that you are all of those three things, while coincidentally having "adhd traits". i'm trying to stay in the zen moment of "true, helpful, kind" and not get carried away by simple crossness. but it strikes me that it ain't right dan and i worry you are being steamrollered - or medicated - into submission.
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Post by Lesley on Dec 11, 2013 9:36:36 GMT
Hear, hear, Mary. Just looked back at your initial post on this thread, Dan. You said Leaving out the {jaw dropping / stumbling on Adult ADHD on the WWW / Do these people know me} - moment I think that counts for something. You are entitled to a diagnosis by a specialist.
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Post by JJ on Dec 11, 2013 10:20:55 GMT
C/Mary has put it all perfectly Dan.
You've spent your life internalising all the issues your 'ADHD' or 'ADHD traits' has caused and come to the natural conclusion you are at fault and are 'mad, bad, lazy'
- the book wouldn't have been called that without the intention to catch the eye of all its intended market - it's what adhd does - so it's very easy for your psych to get you to accept its nothing major really.
It's also very hard to be assertive and stand up to someone in his position.
But the facts are the facts - according to NICE Guidelines and evidenced based conclusions drawn up and agreed by the foremost researchers and academics in this field, ADHD can only be diagnosed by a specialist with training and experience in the diagnosis and treatment of adults with adhd.
Your psych, by his own admission, is not.
The guidelines say that adults displaying the signs of adhd, which have been present since childhood, should be assessed by a specialist. You fall firmly into this category, regardless of recent stresses. I'm completely underwhelmed by your account that your symptoms have been worse with recent external stress - I'd challenge anyone to come up with a health problem (physical as well as mental) that isn't exacerbated by stress.
Only a specialist can diagnose you and assess the severity and impact on your life. Everyone has adhd traits - that's what we rail against all the time, because we're at the end of a continuum of the human condition - to discern when those traits are numerous and problematic enough to fall into adhd diagnosis, is a specialist's remit - not a general psych with a fixation on SSRI's.
I think you need to go back and be firm that you want to be assessed by a specialist as per the guidelines and the quality standard brought out only 6 months ago. Xx
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Post by computermandan on Dec 11, 2013 11:43:47 GMT
I think you guys are right... in at least a "proper" assessment would be fair. not sure I have the fight in me at the moment. Certain people don't see I'm fighting to find answers to some of the issues they themselves identified as being problems. I think exploring them HAS made it worse if nothing else because I keep going on about them and bringing them to everyone's attention all the time. Where I used to plaster over the cracks with workarounds and pretending I was listening etc there's now a chisel wiggling around exposing them fully. Arguing (and that's all it will be) with my other half isn't really what I want to be doing right now (not great for the kids either)... it's a little complicated and I know I'm shouldering a lot of the stress caused by others, choosing to let things go has been hard but I don't really have another option - I don't need the baggage I guess it's a point where I don't really know where to take it in terms of the Docs etc so I'm just going with it in the blind hope that they will get there. Got past being annoyed by it, maybe I'm already steamrollered! oddly enough the psych recommended using internet forums (after I mentioned using one) to get ideas for coping methods and workarounds etc to help me with things. Glad I can be one of the gang, because posting on here and seeing understanding viewpoints really does help get your head around some things.
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Post by computermandan on Dec 11, 2013 11:56:21 GMT
Well. I think now having read what you guys have said and reading through the whole topic again it's really reiterated that I need to effectively stand up to the chap a little. come to think of it i do tend to adopt the hands between knees, head down talking to the important doc pose when I'm in there. Worst thing is - I had the NICE booklet with me all printed out ready - despite mentioning the things i'd listed they all got attributed to anxiety as I had no "physical" issues like drug addiction and trouble etc. I've read and agreed with people being told that's not the case here time and time again - how did I miss this in my own appointment? little bit angry with myself for not making a proper effort here, I've let it slip by like i tend to do with lots of things. I do tend to get walked over by people
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2013 12:08:06 GMT
I've read and agreed with people being told that's not the case here time and time again - how did I miss this in my own appointment? I do tend to get walked over by people I put that down to inattentiveness. The important stuff that just goes out the window when you really need to focus on it. Happens to me all the f*cking time. Take a typical shopping list for instance. I often put the most important things at the top but leave it in a pocket (or at home like I often do) and try to remember instead of crabbing a look. Often forget the important things when trying to focus. Sometimes I have to pace around the supermarket in order to get in the zone to remember the original shopping list. Madness
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Post by shapes on Dec 11, 2013 14:16:05 GMT
I concur with JJ and C/Mary. The general psych is supposed to screen you for common mental health disorders which means anxiety and depression. However, to tell you that you have "ADHD traits" is a cop out. They aren't diagnosing you either way yet they are dissuading you from seeing a specialist.
A general psychiatrist is unlikely to know a lot more about adult ADHD than a GP, so you should push to be referred to a specialist even if you are not sure.
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Post by computermandan on Dec 11, 2013 14:47:32 GMT
am i missing the point entirely? when I go back do i literally just say I want to see a specialist for assessment?
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Post by contrarymary on Dec 11, 2013 15:38:10 GMT
yo little bro this is where i was stumped on my earlier reply - i don't know how this system works. i wonder whether somebody hugely experienced in these things like @planetdave might have some words of wisdom to share.... and don't beat yourself up computermandan, i'm exactly the same. ask me about someone else, ask me about a physical symptom, ask me about an idea... superhuman memory will regurgitate date time place details..... ask me about procrastination or memory problems or mono-tasking and i am completely and utterly blank and struggle to get a word out. indeed, i was so stumped by my first appt with my GP that i took two months to think it all through, and am only now beginning to feel ready to tackle things again. so, believe me, you are doing as well as you can in your set of circumstances, and that's good enough.
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Post by computermandan on Dec 11, 2013 16:23:43 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2013 16:45:34 GMT
I think you could possibly do with Kathymel's input here, given her recent news and assuming you are in an area with no ADHD specialist. I think JJ had a hand in it too What area is it btw? Apologies if you've mentioned already. I wonder if there is a shortcut you could employ, seeing as you made it past the GP, albeit, onto someone with little direct experience of ADHD it seems... Btw, I do have an inkling of the pressure you might be under from 'er indoors and work so hopefully my thoughts are not coming across as blasé. It's a tricky situation and in my experience, can feel pretty fucking dire. In some respects, any reprieve should be seized upon but IMHO, keep your eyes on the prize or it might never end. We aint getting any younger
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2013 17:23:52 GMT
i wonder whether somebody hugely experienced in these things like @planetdave might have some words of wisdom to share.... *coffee/keyboard interface! look - I'm NOT the messiah, I'm just a very naughty boy
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Post by computermandan on Dec 11, 2013 17:44:25 GMT
In bedfordshire - dunstable to be more precise. comes under a group called SEPT (south essex something)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2013 18:00:35 GMT
am i missing the point entirely? when I go back do i literally just say I want to see a specialist for assessment? It's back to the gathering of supportive evidence ie NICE guidelines and Quality Standards and as many self assessment tests as you can lay your hands on. Get them in print, highlight the important/relevant parts and make a list of those pages to quote. Also give some tests to people who know you, if possible as a child. Find reasons why you think the report is at fault and how those symptoms can be attributed to ADHD instead. There have to be figures somewhere for the misdiagnosis of anxiety/depression - all the straw polls I've done have about 90% So - compile it all in a small file and get back into bat asking for a second, specialist, opinion as recommended by the NICE guidelines - out of area if a local specialist is not available. Politely point out that the Quality Standards have been issued and that a consultant psychiatrist is NOT QUALIFIED to diagnose ADHD (they kind of can, but can be 'outvoted' by a more senior medic). You could make noises about how dangerous ADHD is (it's the most dangerous of the outpatient mental disorders - nobody gets hospitalised by ADHD alone though the rate of suicide is enormous, and QOL [quality of life] is remarkably low). If that innings is a duck then it's back in with an appeal to your PCT/CCG for a referral on an individual needs basis - get your MP onside by sending then a nice letter and a synopsis of your file pointing out how, so far, your care has fallen well below acceptable standards. That would need to be in place so it can be considered when the individual needs committee meets (they have a name like that or the committee of last resource!) - usually about once a month.
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Post by computermandan on Dec 11, 2013 18:15:44 GMT
wow. thats some detail. i need to try harder.
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Post by computermandan on Dec 11, 2013 18:16:23 GMT
@planetdave thanks
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2013 20:59:33 GMT
wow. thats some detail. i need to try harder. I got severely beaten up by the NHS pre NICE, pre support groups, pre internet forums. Proper sob story. So now all I ask is for is CASH!
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Post by meepmeep on Dec 12, 2013 9:03:24 GMT
Haven't read everything. Remember you posting, docs giving you sleeping aid/AD.
There's always Maudsley, ask for a referral to Maudsley.
The out of London places seem crazy, no consistency what so ever
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Post by danherts on Dec 27, 2013 1:08:06 GMT
Hi Dan,
I just wrote this whole diatribe urging you to carry on the fight but my phone battery died and deleted the bloody thing.
Apologies as I haven't read the whole thread. Basically I was writing, I may be wrong but I don't see how psychiatry - the apparent experts on these things - can see anxiety as an actual diagnosis rather than a symptom of an underlying problem. Dishing out anxiety as a diagnosis and anti-anxiety meds is a cop out.
Society is mentally ill and created by and for a majority with a certain view and skillset, I don't believe anxiety is part and parcel of ADHD but I think when society is so geared up for you to fail it's an almost a unavoidable side effect.
He may give you some meds that mask the anxiety, but if you still can't function in their world what's the point? I've been doing this my whole life. Drinking and taking drugs to mask the anxiety but getting nowhere.
If a doc gave me some drugs to do the same thing the end result isn't going to be any different just because it's written on a bit of paper and given to me at Tesco rather than a drug dealer.
Getting drugs that help with root cause works far better, drugs that put you on more of a level playing field with those that society was created for.
But what I've found has helped far more is not the drugs, it's the realisation that the anxiety isn't just something that exists on it's own. It's the product of a set of traits that run far deeper than just those on the psychiatrist's tick sheet. It's from a completely different way of perceiving the world and a set of skills undervalued in the world we live in despite the advances these skills have brought. Getting diagnosed and looking back on life with this new realisation changes everything.
You've gone to a psychiatrist and said you suffer from anxiety and that these are the things causing that anxiety. He's then said that it's the anxiety that's your problem and not the things that make you anxious. Does that not sound mental?
Don't take no for an answer. This will shape the rest of your life.
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Post by supine on Dec 27, 2013 14:52:40 GMT
Hi Dan, I've just read the thread through, and although you mention that the psych said you have some adhd traits, you don't say if you get hyperfocus at all when you are keely interested in something? How do you feel in high adrenaline situations for example? I also think it might be worthwhile you giving Dr Chad a call and asking him for advice. Try writing down how you got to where you are right now, and then strip it down to bullet points (so that you can get across your point without going into lecture mode*) *I don't know if you do this I hope you had a decent Christmas and no power cuts or flooding - that's goes for everyone else on here too!
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Post by computermandan on Dec 30, 2013 12:45:20 GMT
Hi Everyone... hope you had good xmases all round. luckily avoided the bad weather, mostly (3 new fence panels added to to do list!), but struck down with some mad chest infection type thing... still barking up pink stuff now (ooh too much info). I do believe I hyperfocus - I've tried to explain this to the psych and he seems to have pushed it down the OCD route and made me explore the Aspergers side of having favourite interests etc which I've kind of ruled out. What I notice more than anything when I'm "in the zone" is how irritable and annoyed I get when people try to get my attention during that point in time. Trying to cook (note trying) I cannot hack people in the kitchen at the same time talking or anything, I get all "stop touching that! Don't make a mess! go out of the door I can't think properly" Mostly I've noticed it late in the evening when everyone else has gone to bed. I can't switch off, I research a random topic and go off on wild (generally internet based) tangents, I recreate 20 or thirty youtube playlists of songs I forgot I liked or new things I've discovered, I might decide I can develop a new website (utlimately doesnt get very far!), write a song (cue lots of notebooks half filled with odd ramblings) or even a book... and then it's 4am and you finally feel drained enough to switch off and sleep for the 2 hours you get before it's time to start again. I know I've just re-written the kinds of things I've read here a million times already - but this is what screws me up daily at work and nightly at home. It's what messed up my uni degree as I watched people, I regularly helped with things they didn't understand, pick up their 1st class degrees and I collected my 3rd which I'm still sure I only just got because the tutors marking my failure of a final project felt enough pity to scrape the thing for any marks possible. and it was such a good idea and I was so enthusiastic! online video rental/streaming before it's time... was I mad not to finish it or what? As it happens I'm a good way into taking the Citalopram now and whilst there's no side effects - I can't say I'm noticing any benefit either. I think I'll take them till they're gone and then go back in feb for my next appointment, tell the chap I feel my symptoms are being treated not the cause of the symptoms and explain why I feel that way and what I want to do about it - specialist referral. I'm sure I've read about Dr Chad here somewhere, but I can't recall what and where in the forum. Also anything private side is unlikely to happen as money would be a big fat brick wall in the way there too. and yes I 100% know what you mean about lecture mode. think I've mumbled on here again now too lol thanks for the continued support and advice
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Post by nic on Dec 30, 2013 14:26:50 GMT
Yep to the cooking thing - can not cope with everyone interfering it's too much noise, things to think about, stuff makes everything go faster in my head x
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2013 23:18:48 GMT
Howdy Dan. I occasionally come across stuff on t'internet and my mind jumps back to various threads on here. I came across Atypical Depression the other day. It is so closely aligned with ADHD it may as well be called I-CANT-BELIEVE-ITS-NOT-ADHD. It might be the 'credible' alternative path for the self-respecting psych who won't be swayed by all this ADHD nonsense. ADHD is only a label after all, a label of behaviours. If you can find the same behaviours under another, more 'favourable' name, job done? It goes as far as to suggest SSRIs and tricyclics (whatever they are) are less than exemplary for treatment and cautiously proffers that the older MAOIs may be more effective (Deprenyl, anyone?). It also mentions Bupropion. Might be worth a shot if you're not finding the current line of meds propelling you forward. I might well be behind the times on this so apologies if it's old news
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Post by computermandan on Dec 31, 2013 12:45:35 GMT
oddly enough - I've just read the link and it's led me to the Melancholic Depression description. which actually does sound a lot like me over the atypical variant? maybe this is where the psych is headed with his thinking.
I've read on from there though and ended up reading about schizophrenia, blunted affect, social anhedonia (comes up a lot in psych's mini reports) and an array of other stuff too. (i should be filling out my 5week late timesheet!!)
I don't know what I "am" anymore but continually reconfirm I'm somewhere outside of typical. ADHD still rings true with lots of my behaviours with the flat/anhedonia a possible comorbid symptom of some kind but I'm starting to think I'm not "negatively" impulsive enough to ever get near a diagnosis.
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Post by Kathymel on Jan 1, 2014 10:36:10 GMT
I knew I'd seen the term 'atypical depression' somewhere before, but couldn't think where. Then last night I fell out with a friend and revisited the Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria page that got posted here a while back. The psych asserts that he has found his ADHD patients all suffer from RSD. Then he says, in the past, this had been the hallmark of an unofficial diagnosis called Atypical Depression.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2014 10:48:09 GMT
It describes ADHD without impulsivity as far as I can see. It doesn't preclude impulsivity though I guess.
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Post by Kathymel on Jan 1, 2014 10:58:49 GMT
I have RSD in spades and the impulsive part is where you walk away from a years long friendship without a backwards glance.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2014 11:58:05 GMT
the impulsive part is where you walk away from a years long friendship without a backwards glance. And how many times have I done exactly that justifying it all the way. In my case I've rationalised it by "rejecting before being rejected", but it ends up being a bit more complex than that of course. <Ugh, losing the x-key sensitivity on my netbook>. Proud of myself last night though, got insulted (from afar, or so I thought) and managed not to capitulate. Interesting thread material to research. Thanks to all contributors
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